On anti-crypto toxicity • Hacker News Board

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#431

Post by sneak » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

TomSwirly wrote: post #355

sneak wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out there are actually things that lawmakers don't really have the power to effectively ban, drugs and prostitution and gambling and cash transactions principally among them. A lot of people don't seem to integrate this fact. The practical power of a lawmaking body is not unlimited. There are certain things they simply cannot stop, no matter how many laws are passed. It won't "end" for either group, really.…

You're saying that the use case for cryptocurrencies is crime, which I agree with, and the world's police won't touch you because they can't, which I think is ridiculous. If the EU and the US alone said, "In a month, we'll consider every crypto transaction to be criminal in nature, and we're going to enforce it," the market would collapse as everyone stampeded for the door at the same time.

> If the EU and the US alone said, "In a month, we'll consider every crypto transaction to be criminal in nature, and we're going to enforce it," the market would collapse as everyone stampeded for the door at the same time.

True. And yet, cryptocurrencies would still remain useful! A market collapse is not the same as it not having utility. Bitcoin was useful even when it was only pennies, and it will remain so.

This thread is about whether or not cryptocurrencies are useful. They are. Could governments crash their markets? Yes. Could they stop people from using them? No.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#432

Post by nikanj » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

soco wrote: post #347

nikanj wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the claims has panned out: Plenty of people have gotten rich. To be fair, they've gotten rich from selling their early-adopter cryptos to the next fool. But many people have won the lottery.

The same argument can be made about Ponzi or MLM schemes...

If if quacks like a Ponzi scheme and makes early adopters rich like a Ponzi scheme..

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#433

Post by miohtama » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

tkfu wrote: post #416

miohtama wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrencies might not answer to all of these questions. However there is one question where it gives an answer. It is how to create more efficient financial system. And part of this answer might lead to rebalancing some of distribution of the wealth, mostly by reducing operating costs and profit margins of the current Wall St and other local oligopolic financial institutions. Blockchains do create fundamental va…

I just had to laugh at this one: > Maybe the shadiest form of these deals comes from the public equity markets from a no-fees online broker Robin Hood and its Payment For Order Flow (PFOF) because of the conflict of interest of a broker making more profit when it is "saving in customer transaction fees." > > In decentralised markets, such shenanigans do not exist. MEV is an extremely well-known, well-studied empirica…

Thank you for a good insightful comment. You are incorrect, I have a sincerely-held belief MEV is not ok and your assumption what I do believe is wrong.

I am well aware of MEV issues, as I have been developing for Ethereum for the last 6 years or so. They hurt me as a user as well. However, due to the already long post, I decided not to include them in this post and hope to write a comparison in the future. As you said, the comparison could be really interesting.

I believe MEV hurts the ecosystem overall. It is wrong, but I know it can be technically solved, as opposite to solved with regulation, on multiple levels. Some of the current solutions include e.g.

- Avalanche commit and reveal subnet

- Short-term auctions like Cowswap

Basically, everything where you can wait for a better trade execution effectively counters some of HFT issues, both in traditional and crypto world. You can always decide which price you are willing accept and then just wait for it.

Unfortunately Ethereum 1.0 generation AMMs and swaps are not built this in mind, because they come from the era when MEV was not an issue yet. But as I said, this is being addressed in the next generation of the technology. Also unlike on stock markets, as a user you have more transparency on the execution so you can verify that you did not get screwed over (unlike with Robin Hood).

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#434

Post by amarant » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

reedjosh wrote: post #378

WJW wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is trying to get to the moon by climbing successively higher trees, are you doing them a disservice by reminding them that the highest tree is not tall enough to reach there? Especially when they are burning large amounts of resources trying to get there? If people are genuine about solving the world's poverty and inequality problems, recognizing that cryptocurrencies are unlikely to help with those proble…

So using Fiat that corrupt governments worldwide print as a hidden means of taxation and control has noting to do with inequality? Avoiding that is the original and prime goal of crypto currency. Like anything new get rich quick schemes exist, but that's not Bitcoin and it's not Monero.

Wait, am I reading this right? Are you saying tax evasion is the original and prime goal of cryptocurrency?

If so, excuse my lack of respect for your goals, but they strike me as dishonest/villainy.

If not, well then I just have no idea what you were trying to say but apologise for misinterpreting.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#435

Post by Traster » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:35 PM UTC

lui8906 wrote: post #349

Traster wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, provide some evidence for that claim. Because again, that's the claim of "Well crypto is doing amazing things" but it needs actual evidence. I know it theoretically could happen if you ignore all the glaring problems in practice. But does it actually happen? What has cyrpto provided that you can't provide via Paypal or bank transfer? Hell - here's a paypal address for a bunch of guys who want to buy Ukraine a f…

> Okay, provide some evidence for that claim. Because again, that's the claim of "Well crypto is doing amazing things" but it needs actual evidence. I know it theoretically could happen if you ignore all the glaring problems in practice. But does it actually happen? Which part of the claim are you refuting here? It is a fact that one can send very large sums of value between two addresses for a trivial transaction fe…

>one can send very large sums of value between two addresses

This is not the same thing as sending money to Ukraine. If I send money between two addresses, I've just sent money between 2 addresses.

> This value can be swapped across other tokens with low slippage in the millions (denominated in USD).

But not to actually buy anything in Ukraine. To do that you have to find someone with Fiat. As you see with all the other examples I gave you, what you've done is used the modern banking system to buy crypto currency - some bank transfer to a crypto exchange, send it from one address to another, and then left yourself with the problem of getting the money back out of crypto in Ukraine. Which as you'll see with almost all of the charitable giving in crypto to Ukraine, happens via the modern banking system, often with the direct involvement of the Ukrainian government.

So it seems to me, that this entire thing about using Crypto for Ukraine is rubbish. And it seems like that to you too - because when I start interrogating the idea, the Crypto to Ukraine story morphs into a Rwandan sending money to Nigeria.

My take is that Crypto in your example, was a worthless layer of complexity that doesn't solve the difficult problems of international banking, it solves the trivial bit in the middle.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#436

Post by usrn » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

TomSwirly wrote: post #407

Quindecillion wrote: post #122

It's unfortunate that Bitcoin has become so mired in partisan politics. For me its purpose is simple. If my money is a representation of my time and effort, why should I accept the central banks' inflation "target" of even 2%, due to money printing? I don't see why anyone should be okay with that, particularly given that central banks rarely meet that target for long and more often than not overshoot by a significant…

The answer is this - a slightly inflationary currency offers the greatest good for the greatest number. It encourages people to _invest_ their money so it doesn't lose value. Deflationary currencies encourage people to _hoard_ money as a viable strategy, and the more people hoard, the more valuable it becomes. In a society where the most profitable and safe strategy is simply to hold your money and do nothing with it…

>Deflationary currencies encourage people to _hoard_ money

People hoard things regardless. Inflationary currencies cause people to hoard property and we're watching the destruction from that unfold in real time in the US.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#437

Post by Aicy » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #412

reedjosh wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politically working in sound money (no printer go brrrr) is governmentally forbidden. Bitcoin subverted the corrupt political process and has brought that choice back.

Bitcoin will only be "sound money" when I can pay my taxes in it. Or at least pay for my oil change. Sure it's artificially limited in quantity. Great! Doesn't make it money. It's a commodity like any other.

This was fhe promise of the gold standard before the world wars. The gold standard would force governments to be financially disciplined, right?

Wrong, as soon as governments needed to drop the gold standard they did it. Why wouldn't they do the same with the bitcoin standard?

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#438

Post by bee_rider » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

trutannus wrote: post #188

DebtDeflation wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It has been a decade of dumb claims and ridiculous assertions from the pro-crypto crowd. Agreed. For me it was the NFT'ing of a fart that was the jumping the shark moment that drove me from being merely a crypto skeptic to being vociferously anti-crypto and advocating against it at every turn.

Right, anyone can generate NFTs though. How does this differ from saying something like "the artist who called an empty room art is the jumping the shark moment, now I'm advocating against art at every turn"?

Lots of art is pretty dumb, I don't advocate against it because who has time to go advocate against dumb, pointless things? Just avoid it. I'm not into art, not into NFTs, but while bumbling around in the world I've encountered enough genuinely beautiful art that I don't think the field as a whole is a joke. This isn't the case for NFTs.

On the other hand, NFTs are pretty new. Maybe someone will make a museum of NFTs that don't suck in a couple years and I'll be proven foolish.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#439

Post by mr_spothawk » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #389

lui8906 wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, provide some evidence for that claim. Because again, that's the claim of "Well crypto is doing amazing things" but it needs actual evidence. I know it theoretically could happen if you ignore all the glaring problems in practice. But does it actually happen? Which part of the claim are you refuting here? It is a fact that one can send very large sums of value between two addresses for a trivial transaction fe…

For most trade questions, and that's what Ukraine is using the funds for, international finance is a solved problem. When it comes to tax evasion, large scale fraud, money laundering and so on it is definitely not. Unfortunately, crypto is only making the unsolved problems worse. And regarding the case with the guy in Nigeria: How much access do people in the developing world have to crypto? And don't start with the…

HSBC? WellsFargo?

what are you talking about crypto-related fraud without even a nod to these enormous organizations that have been convicted (multiple times) of fraud?

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#440

Post by falcolas » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #428

falcolas wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres one big weakness in the use of cryptocurrencies: swapping back and forth with the local fiat currency at scale. All a government has to do is shut those commercial ventures down, and the value of the $coin will disappear for those residents. Plus, unlike drugs and prostitution, the ledger is public and permanent… simplifying enforcement against the remaining fringes dramatically.

> All a government has to do is shut those commercial ventures down, and the value of the $coin will disappear for those residents. So long as any of those residents can travel to another place where they can exchange it for hard money, that's not true. Countries do not exist in isolation.

Carrying large quantities of cash across a border is usually investigated by the border guards. If you don't declare it, you're breaking the law.

This is compounded by how some countries are big enough that traveling across a border is a fairly significant undertaking (Brazil, for example). Not something most folks can or will do on a whim. Plus, you'd have to transfer a fairly significant amount of money to be worth it, making it more likely you'd run afoul of the border patrol.