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Is the madness ever going to end?

unixsheikh.com

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Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#431

Post by tester34 »

martneumann wrote: post #415
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Microsoft has resources but no incentive to do this. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/maui/what-is-maui

From my experience, these Microsoft frameworks never really get picked up by larger parts of the community. I feel like Microsoft's approach is to create a framework for everything and hope it sticks - though they appear to repeatedly fail. Nobody really used Xamarin. Nobody is using Blazor. This very minimal documentation of Maui doesn't really scream confidence in their own product, either. I predict this one will…

>Nobody is using Blazor.

Hmm, I don't think this is true.

Also this is kind of different beast - WASM has some limitations that need to be overcome

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#432

Post by int0x2e »

mbell wrote: post #329
aemreunal wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These aren't engineering decisions, they're business decisions All engineering (including "real" ones like civil or mechanical) is about fitting your requirements within budgets. When one's building a skyscraper, you try to build it in a way that minimizes the cost while satisfying all requirements (it shouldn't fall down given such and such conditions, etc.) Engineering is largely the art of solving problems that…

"Any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands." - Someone

Your quote is better, but for people that have a hard time with that analogy, I like using the example of building a 4-story concrete/brick building - anyone can make a building stand strong by filling it with concrete / bricks. It takes precise engineering to know how thin you can make the walls/supports to make that building worth building.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#433

Post by wolpoli »

Ultimatt wrote: post #343
aemreunal wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These aren't engineering decisions, they're business decisions All engineering (including "real" ones like civil or mechanical) is about fitting your requirements within budgets. When one's building a skyscraper, you try to build it in a way that minimizes the cost while satisfying all requirements (it shouldn't fall down given such and such conditions, etc.) Engineering is largely the art of solving problems that…

Feels like everyone is very disinterested in the cost to the user with most "modern ways" of doing things. Many webpages use far too much resource to just communicate text. Web adverts are especially awful for this. I could browse the web with dialup and a machine a thousandth as powerful as my phone. So as a consumer why do I need to "upgrade" what was the added value above Google scale is delivering computationally…

> Feels like everyone is very disinterested in the cost to the user with most "modern ways" of doing things.

The only time a decision maker actually cares about the cost to the user is when they are trying to calculate how much money (or savings) they could capture from the user.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#434

Post by tester34 »

BeefWellington wrote: post #164
root_axis wrote: post #23

The author is fighting a strawman. Rather than engage with the specific problems these solutions were built to solve they dismissively regard them as just flavor of the week trends purely for the sake of chasing newness. This is true of the entire post, but I'll tackle just one since it's emblematic of my issues with all the rest: The argument for Electron and React Native isn't "it's modern", it's "it's much cheaper…

> The argument for Electron and React Native isn't "it's modern", it's "it's much cheaper". I'd argue it's not cheaper overall, just for the company choosing to do the development. What I mean is, the lost productivity of waiting around for slack to load a channel is essentially outsourcing this cost difference via poor performance.

>What I mean is, the lost productivity of waiting around for slack to load a channel is essentially outsourcing this cost difference via poor performance.

What makes you think that Slack's loading times is due to Electron, not shitty backend?

This is genuine question

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#435

Post by _moof »

Ultimatt wrote: post #343
aemreunal wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These aren't engineering decisions, they're business decisions All engineering (including "real" ones like civil or mechanical) is about fitting your requirements within budgets. When one's building a skyscraper, you try to build it in a way that minimizes the cost while satisfying all requirements (it shouldn't fall down given such and such conditions, etc.) Engineering is largely the art of solving problems that…

Feels like everyone is very disinterested in the cost to the user with most "modern ways" of doing things. Many webpages use far too much resource to just communicate text. Web adverts are especially awful for this. I could browse the web with dialup and a machine a thousandth as powerful as my phone. So as a consumer why do I need to "upgrade" what was the added value above Google scale is delivering computationally…

If we designed aircraft the way we design consumer software nowadays, every plane would have sixteen rocket engines and two seats.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#436

Post by WA »

It's funny that Electron and web devs are blamed for "increasingly more abstraction". The thing is: You can't really build cross-platform native apps.

Maybe stop blaming people who use tools that enable this and start blaming Apple, Microsoft and the Linux community for being incapable of providing one native UI kit with one native language that truly enables cross-platform development.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#437

Post by larrymcp »

distrill wrote: post #120

> In the past IT people ... where very clever people. People with a high level of intelligence ... I normally don't mind typos and would never comment on a misspelling like this. But I also cringe pretty hard at people lamenting over how dumb people around them are. The fact that this kind of rant is so full of typos is fairly appropriate.

I noticed on his "About" page that he says that English is not his native language. So I'll cut him a break on spelling! I wrote to him with proofreading changes including this one, and he has now corrected them.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#438

Post by filmor »

int0x2e wrote: post #432
mbell wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands." - Someone

Your quote is better, but for people that have a hard time with that analogy, I like using the example of building a 4-story concrete/brick building - anyone can make a building stand strong by filling it with concrete / bricks. It takes precise engineering to know how thin you can make the walls/supports to make that building worth building.

If you just mindlessly fill everything with bricks and concrete, you likely need to make the lower walls thicker than the upper ones to support the weight...

The whole engineering process can be done without ever looking at the budget as long as the framework is given ("use these materials", "you have this much space").

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#439

Post by neilalexander »

gaze wrote: post #10

The piece is kinda whiney and comes off like "get off my lawn!" and doesn't really add much beyond the myriad of other complaints. Thing is that I don't really think that many people love developing this way, it's just that nobody will pay anyone to shovel our way out from under this mess of technical debt. GUI development on windows is a schizophrenic mess and then you want to be cross platform? The only options are…

> and most importantly you can externalize a fair bit of the debt onto the end user as power and compute resource consumption

"The user will tolerate it being crap" is not an excellent mindset for us professionals to be striving for.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#440

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

antonvs wrote: post #296
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet complaining gets eyeballs. Look at this comment thread. Look at the position in the HN queue. I'm not a fan of it. I understand the author's complaints and frustrations (I am also "chronologically-challenged"), but I have found that complaining doesn't really buy me much. I'll do a minor whine, from time to time (usually about the ageism in tech), but, for the most part, I try to bring some light to the conv…

> I write native (Swift) apps for Apple systems. Swift is only 7 years old, one of the newest languages/tools in existence. This is an implicit argument against the author's case. One might perhaps argue that Swift's newness/modernness is an exception, that it's "one of the good ones" when it comes to new systems. But this doesn't really work. Using Swift for native GUI app building is platform-specific, and writing…

Exactly.

New is not necessarily bad. Old is not necessarily good. It all depends on what we are doing, and what our goals are.

I also use PHP to write my backends. It works nicely, for the scope of my needs. I’ve been writing in that, for over twenty years. My servers work quite well, but aren’t particularly “buzzword-compliant.”

I’m not really a server programmer, though. If I need a backend to be more intense than what I’m capable of doing, then I’ll hire someone to write it, using a more robust stack, and I need to be prepared to open my wallet, as I have high standards. Good engineers will always cost more. They’re worth it. They will frequently also have gray hair; regardless of the tech.

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