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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#431

Post by mrweasel »

The whole "Quittening" is a little US-centric. The short answer is: "Too many jobs, too few qualified people"

We're struggling to hire senior talent, well, senior, entry level, anything but apprentice. The thing is: So is everyone else. There are statistic on these things, there aren't anyone to hire, you have to get people to leave other jobs, but then those companies are just shorthanded and you solved nothing.

So we hire as many apprentices as we're able to handle and legally have. When their training is done, 4 years from now, the majority of them will receive a job offer. So far we hired all but one of our former apprentices.

Engineering isn't the only line of work with this issue. My wife business is in the same situation. Unemployment rate is at 0,7%. The people not employed are all in that situation due to personality issues. The only available people they can hire are those toxic enough that most would prefer not to hire them if ANY other option is available. Other than that, take in as many apprentices as they can handle and ofter them a job in 3,5 years time.

This is debated in Denmark ever year, in July, when schools announce who got in to which universities, colleges and so on. Every year: We're missing nurses, engineers, STEM, all the usual. Not once have I hear anyone mention which subjects people need to stop applying for. My personal favorite subject that can be cancelled: SoMe marketing manager. The amount of people applying to those educations are insane and they can't even market themselfs well enough to get a job.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#432

Post by glitchalumni »

pjmlp wrote: post #311
pattusk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

We are talking about 50-60k before taxes here though (e.g. healthcare isn't included yet) - there really is not that much left in the end, especially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs).

Also all inclusive contracts are quite common or some legal workarounds with payed overtime after x amount of hours (where x amount would be working 2 times as much per week), never heard of unions for this sector in DACH either.

Frankly getting a 10k salary bump in Europe is still pretty solid - for 20k I would bet most engineers around here would make a switch. (note that you tax down ~50% above the 60k you earn from now on).

> Ah, and in some countries having too many companies on the CV isn't well seen, it appears the candidate isn't able to fit-in anywhere.

True, but if someone switched jobs every year it feels like a red flag to me anywhere where the cost of hiring actually matters I would say.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#433

Post by exdsq »

dastbe wrote: post #392
exdsq wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone here earning $500k in their 20s like this person suggests? I’m sure some can but this is not the norm and expectations need to be checked and called out when wrong.

are you interested in the norm in terms of raw numbers, or where you would need to work to achieve this? and are you interested in people who have won the stock lottery, or just people who have their total comp pegged at 500k+? assuming the latter, you're looking at getting hired in at level as a senior engineer (maybe one level higher depending on the company) at most of your brand name tech companies that value eng…

Okay sure, but it’s hardly the case one can just join a FAANG company at a senior level to earn $500k easily as OP suggests.

Want to retire early? Easy! Just become a managing partner at JP Morgan in your late 20s and you’ll be rich enough by 30.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#434

Post by shawabawa3 »

BoorishBears wrote: post #294
optymizer wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20% seems very low to me. In the 2 FAANG's I've worked at, the RSU's ended up being 100+% of my salary (which was average for my level).

Initial grant was 100% of one year's salary you mean right? So +25% of yearly salary before appreciation? Otherwise you're saying something like a 250k base, 1MM RSUs before stock appreciation... which is a very lopsided looking offer

The non-faang but with faang pegged compensation company I work for does yearly grants

My L5 comp is ~$150k base and $140k equity per year (I'm based in UK, would be higher if I was in the US)

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#435

Post by exdsq »

0xfaded wrote: post #429
exdsq wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone here earning $500k in their 20s like this person suggests? I’m sure some can but this is not the norm and expectations need to be checked and called out when wrong.

I was in startup land over in SF, so my salary topped out lower at 160k USD but with ~2% equity. I was in a partnership in a small plane, and one of the guys was "in his 20's making $500k+" at google as an L6 plus retention bonus. Several engineers in my circle (early 30's) are on $500k+. Currently I'm living in Europe but leaving back to SF. I tell people all the time about salaries in the US and point them to level…

I live in Palo Alto so I’m aware - but it is not easy to get to that point. It’s not a case of “oh, move to the US and earn $500k!”.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#436

Post by kristopolous »

jmchuster wrote: post #315
redisman wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview Ugh yeah it’s ridiculous. We can’t hire anyone! Have you considered not putting candidates through months of studying to memorize a bunch of algorithm tricks and then grilling them for 5-10 hours total on those? No - that’s not what the cargo cult manual says.

I dunno if it's that ridiculous. Having to spend a couple of months studying to get a 100k raise, seems not a completely unfair trade.

You'll be working with other people who jumped over some arbitrary hurdle.

What kind of team is that? Are you going to be surrounded by mentors? Free of bozos? In a world of competent executioners?

Unlikely. Look at how terrible a lot of the products are that these companies make.

They're fundamentally selecting for the wrong set of attributes. Look at the turnover rate - how many projects go nowhere and collapse, the quality of the output. Nobody ever leaves a job, they leave a team. The evidence is all around us that this process produces total shit results but it's become too much of a cult to change it.

Whenever I'm looking around for potentially better work and I see companies doing that, I don't even bother. It doesn't lead to better teams, more competent execution or better products.

Why on earth would I squander my time with some random ship of people who know how to do a sliding window? I'm sure they're all friendly, but we're doing hard things here and need the right mix.

I mean what on earth, fix the fucking process and maybe they'll stop incinerating dumptrucks of money on badly executed technology

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#437

Post by TurboHaskal »

solididiot wrote: post #377
didip wrote: post #87

The article is concise but missing a lot of real-life examples: * The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview. That is off-putting to a lot of people even though the money would be super sweet to have. * Some wannabe startups also employ LeetCode style interview even though they don't pay anywhere near FAANG/Unicorns. * You know what's worst than LeetCode style interview? LeetCode style inte…

There's something much worse than Leetcode. Take home unpaid long projects that end up in rejection or lowball offers.

Definitely. My last job prospect would have required me to lock myself in the room for a weekend or more doing a chain of low dopamine tasks.

I have done take home projects before, which often resulted in low ball offers. At most it made me angry for the time wasted, but now having children I just don't even bother anymore.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#438

Post by nvarsj »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #221
digianarchist wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The companies that pay 80% of FAANG salaries without the LeetCode whiteboard bullshit are out there.

It's really not that hard to prep for interviews.... Why take the paycut?

Spoken like someone without kids or external responsibilities. Free time is a precious resource for those with families.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#439

Post by mcv »

pjmlp wrote: post #311
pattusk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

Despite all of that, I think engineers are underpaid in Europe (and presumably East Asia).

I just left a job at a major bank where all the non-engineer roles got paid, or at least could be paid more than I got. There were 5 pay scales for engineers, the top 2 of which weren't even being used. I got there from a freelance contract, and I had to take a serious pay cut to continue working on the project. It was a really cool project, which I wrote the initial prototype for, and guided a growing team in its development, and I accepted the pay cut because I loved the project so much, but a year later I left to go back to freelancing. I think that's the only way to get paid your worth here. Meanwhile the company is wondering why they can't retain senior engineers. If I wanted to be paid more, I'd have to take on more organisational duties outside my team, and I just wasn't interested in that, so I left. For an interesting freelance project that pays even more than that bank paid me when I freelanced for them.

It doesn't have to be 6 figures, but I think senior software engineers absolutely should be getting manager-level salaries, without having to dilute their technical focus by taking on other responsibilities.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#440

Post by rojcyk »

eyjafjallajokul wrote: post #340
pjmlp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

> Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... If you are in your 20's, it is totally worth moving to the US where you can get paid 500K+ per year if you navigate your career efficiently. I posit that making this much money more than covers any of these additional expenses that you call out.

It used to be like that. I was playing with the idea a couple years ago as well. But looking at the social climate in the states, I'll rather keep my low paying job (in comparison to the FAANG) and enjoy the general safety.
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