President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#431

Post by Aunche » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

I think that deontological vs consequentialist ethics is a spectrum. If Covid were as painful and dangerous as Ebola, people would be much more likely to accept stricter quarantines and mandates.

I think the problem with Western deontology is that it is no longer rooted in consequences and has become a parody of itself. Take US foreign affairs, for example. We used to care about limiting the Soviet Union's sphere of influence. The most efficient way to do so was to support anti-communist dictators that could be bought out. However, this was sold to the people as "spreading democracy". A generation later, those in power genuinely believed that America is supposed to spread democracy, which is why we spent trillions of dollars trying to do so in the Middle East to little effect.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#432

Post by mikewarot » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #292

jmull wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The letter is from the president of Purdue, while the web site is a news site that is independent of the university. Also, it’s not really censorship — they have to deal with the GDPR headache, one way or the other, just like everyone else. Simply blocking the EU is a blunt but simple and effective way of doing so, and makes decent sense for a site where the interest is 99% local.

> they have to deal with the GDPR headache What headache? A sensible solution: when EU visitor is detected, don't set cookies. Purdue solution: when EU visitor is detected, block them.

>when EU visitor is detected, don't set cookies

How do you know that somewhere in the stack of things the server is running isn't something that would set a cookie for some valid reason, and thus trigger the EU's stupid laws?

A positive stop, the redirect to a text page, is far better than a hope and a prayer.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#433

Post by yalogin » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

jahnu wrote: post #101

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #63

The scale of some Chinese people's commitment to support of their government's chosen narrative against facts is quite impressive / scary. Zealots make great cannon fodder, and the more cannon fodder the higher the chance of winning. It bodes poorly for Hong Kong, Taiwan, and any other country with a coastline along the South China Sea.

One of the best ways for those of us in the democratic West to combat this is to not tolerate when our own governments promote false narratives. This displays the virtues of our imperfect system better than anything else, imo. Don't tolerate lies, hypocrisy, or sophistry from our leaders even if they are nominally on 'our side'.

This is just wishful thinking. Doesn’t help other countries. We just think way too much of ourselves in the US and our influence in the world, specifically how our way of life influences other countries. It probably stems from the collapse of the USSR, which was mostly because of internal system rot but we attributed it to American freedom and democracy. Every foreign policy decision since then is taken with those lens and we ended up failing miserably in all of them.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#434

Post by rkk3 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

chernevik wrote: post #415

rkk3 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen Masacre You realize the 89' protestors were trying to overthrow the government (thats how you establish the Democracy). No surprise that celebrating failed-revolutionaries is contentious.

I contend that those seeking to overthrow tyrannies are to be celebrated.

Sounds good until you try to figure out how to classify tyrannies.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#435

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

DFHippie wrote: post #303

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it? This is a legitimate comparison between the CCP and the government of Oklahoma. It is a bad comparison in terms of responses. China fears and represses discussion of the Tiananmen Square massacre. In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience.

> In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience. Well, some do. The anti-CRT brouhaha is a reaction against that. Do you suppose they'll be teaching about the Tulsa Race Massacre in Oklahoma high schools in the near future? ETA I think people were taking me the wrong way. I added "anti-" above. The brouhaha is all the people trying to prevent their kids from hearing anything in…

It's clear that some Americans would prefer to hide and forget inconvenient parts of US history in the same way China would prefer to forget Tiananmen Square.

Personally I'm strongly on the side of remembering history so we can learn from it and not be doomed to repeat it.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#436

Post by Larrikin » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #397

oxfeed65261 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perdue President Mitch Daniels said “Those seeking to deny those rights to others, let alone to collude with foreign governments in repressing them, will need to pursue their education elsewhere,” but there is no indication that the students have been expelled. The statement is bizarre and nonsensical if the students are not expelled.

It also sounds like they’d need proof they colluded with a foreign entity which is a very high bar.

Even a public university can decide what they want to do when it comes to punishment for students they admit. You aren't owed an explanation no matter how much you pretend on the internet to care.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#437

Post by petre » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

Different ethics? You are very open minded. Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it. Totalitarian governments busy themselves with editing history and skewing the narrative. I've been there, growing in a communist country liberated because the USSR went bankrupt. So, thank you USA. Now we can hold views critical of the government without being arrested, tortured and sent to forced labour camps.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#438

Post by Cupertino95014 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #373

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at you, getting all fancy with your "deontological" and "consequentialist." Does it feel erudite to use 5 dollar words when a 10 cent word like "freedom" would do? No, actually we cannot see that "having consequentialist ethics that don't care about your freedom do a lot better at fighting pandemics." But then, we don't have police welding people's doors shut, either.

I think you need to look up what "deontological" means. It's putting a means before an end. America does this with spreading freedom. Colonial Spain did this with spreading christianity. Russia did this with spreading communism.

I know how to look up words, thanks. You do need to de-obfuscate, though.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#439

Post by Semaphor » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #347

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone keeps saying how free they are and how great their country is yet you can't even drink an alcoholic beverage on the street without getting arrested. You go to a town festival and the people who want to drink are enclosed in a small area like cattle. Public space alcohol consumption is one of the weirdest metrics I’ve seen to gauge freedom. But for what it’s worth, laws regarding public alcohol consumption…

> Public space alcohol consumption is one of the weirdest metrics I’ve seen to gauge freedom. I would say it's a much more relevant metric than the ability to own a shitload of guns, or to drive a black smoke diesel truck, the latter of which is honestly bafflingly antisocial behavior. The definition of "freedom" should begin with the freedom from others pushing their negative externalities onto you.

> The definition of "freedom" should begin with the freedom from others pushing their negative externalities onto you.

While I (European) generally agree with you, this could also be a point against public consumption of alcohol ;)

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#440

Post by cloverich » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #282

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese also don't talk about a lot of the bad things that happened in the great leap forward, which could have a case made that it was worse than slavery.

Is like to see what that case is? Because nothing about the Great Leap I’ve read compares to chattel slavery or the 40% losses of life in the transatlantic slave trade.

Go read stories about neighbors eating each others children to survive. It is pointless to compare tragedies as to which is worse, but it is worthwhile to recognize the magnitude of the (unimaginable) suffering caused by bad policy. The point is you wouldn't want to experience either -- neither is a better choice, they were both disasters worthy of keeping in memory.