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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#431

I am not from US so don't interpret my comment trough US blue vs red or similar lenses. My observations is that students learn at different speed, the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious, at each step some student will fall behind, then if he is behind he will have more trouble comprehending the next topic and in the end you get a student that does not know the basic ru…

> My observations is that students learn at different speed

The pejorative used for structuring curriculum and resources based on this observation is "tracking" and aside from special needs and other narrow exceptions it is thought to be a great historical injustice that has largely been eliminated from public schooling in the US. Now we look forward to ending the injustice unequal funding due to differential tax bases among communities has created. Doubtless ending this remaining vestige of inequity will herald a new age of public education excellence in the US.

Or something.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose this is what I get for trying to interact with someone in good faith on the internet.

Your interpretation of what I was saying was clearly adversarial and uncharitable so I just got tired of it. It's entirely possible to have high standards for everyone (including the "stupid") without reducing the quality of the curriculum. But you're not interested in having that discussion because you're grinding some other axe about what you perceive to be the ideological takeover of the educational system.

Then make your case instead of pretending to not understand the statement.

What is your solution to enable high quality curriculum and ensuring uniform success?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#433
I lived in the Bay Area until 2019 and my kids went to school in Piedmont, which is one of the top funded school districts per capita in California. The math curriculum at Piedmont junior high-school was a joke. The math book was electronic-only on a crappy chrome book and the book had no lessons, only problems. The book seriously tried to introduce the concept of exponents, and so many others, into problems without explanation. Teaching my kids math became a 10 hour a week job for me and my wife. Piedmont HS lost their physics teacher to another school that paid better and didn't replace the teacher for the entire year; a whole year of HS students, some of them seniors, whose opportunity to take a good physics course was blown. My family moved to Colorado recently... partly because of the CA education system.

Back when I was in junior high and high-school in the late 80's and early 90's... math classes had hard-bound printed math books that actually had lessons and clear examples so that it was possible to learn math concepts, on your own, even if the teacher didn't know what they were doing. Whatever happened to good books?... it is not like the subject matter has changed in the past 20-30 years. I thought it is proven that students learn better from quality printed material, with appropriate use of color, over e-screens (correct me if I'm wrong) and yet all education is going to screens.

I had great teachers in HS; both my physics teacher and math teacher had masters degrees in their respective fields. Today, there is no good financial reason to be a teacher with a Physics, Math, or Engineering degree in most CA school districts and that is, I think, a big part of the problem. If you don't have good teachers who can present a topic well and engage a class-room then students aren't going to learn the topic and progression through mathematical curricula is going to fall.

Another factor is probably demographic. This is anecdotal but I switched high schools after my freshman year from a HS in a lower middle class area in Sacramento to a pretty wealthy, upper middle-class area in Southern California and the level of the average student was quite a bit higher. The teachers were probably better overall in the SoCal HS but I don't think the teachers were that much better. But there was huge cultural difference in the student body of the two schools. At the Sacramento HS, I took geometry as a freshman and there were a lot of juniors and seniors in the class. None of them were dumb people... it is just that doing well in math and the going to a good college was not something on the average student's mind in a poor community. At the SoCal HS, most students were very interested in doing well in school, took math and science semi-seriously, and looked towards going to best college they could get into. Almost every student at the SoCal HS at least took Trig/Pre-Calculus.

Bring this all to the topic at hand... this does feel like some Kurt Vonnegut stuff and I am really disappointed. Holding back math education in mainstream public schools is going to push more parents, who can afford the time/money [read: the more affluent], to put their kids in charter schools, private schools, or supplemental education for math [e.g. Kumon]. This going to limit opportunity for the less affluent and probably increase the gap in math education across economic dividing lines. This may also pull money away from public schools over time.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kind of anti-solutions backfire. Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people. Instead of solving that... well few of us have any power over that, so instead we resort to changing things we do have power over. Like… watering down math classes and pretending that is even the thousandth thing on the list of solutions that should be tackled first as a response. It's so far down the list (and has bette…

> These kind of anti-solutions backfire. Its not an anti-solution, and you provide neither evidence or reasoning to support your claim that it is part of a class of things that backfires. > Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people That is a real problem. Education is done in a culturally biased manner which perpetuates the disadvantage or marginalized groups is also a real problem. As is the fact tha…

It was these folks (and it seems you agree) that decided to wrap up a few good suggestions (and a few bad ones) in political propaganda with only the most tenuous tangent to relevance.

People recognize that pretty easily and are instantly turned off. So yes, it backfires, poisoning any hope they had to convince. Re-read this comment section from top to bottom for your evidence.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#435
post #404

So much dialogue is around how to pace and sequence the traditional math curriculum (geometry, trig, precalc, calc). Are those still the most important things to teach? And do they need to be taught and tested through working through the same calculations framed in the same narrow scenarios? When's the last time you solved a quadratic equation or did integration by parts in the real world? The concepts may be importa…

Show me an American university that doesn't spend the first two years of a STEM major's life on the three-semester calculus sequence, linear algebra, and ordinary differential equations, and I will then come up with a secondary school math curriculum targeting admission to such a program.

Actually, the "S" is pretty broad and I'm guessing there are multiple majors at reputable universities that don't require all that.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#436
post #404

So much dialogue is around how to pace and sequence the traditional math curriculum (geometry, trig, precalc, calc). Are those still the most important things to teach? And do they need to be taught and tested through working through the same calculations framed in the same narrow scenarios? When's the last time you solved a quadratic equation or did integration by parts in the real world? The concepts may be importa…

Can you really learn stats without calculus first? How would you explain continuous probability to students? If you're talking about descriptive stats and the parts that do not require calculus, then high school will teach them. As for geometry, isn't it the only course that teaches kids rigorous proof? It helps students build math maturity and is a segway into other type of proofs used in discrete maths.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your interpretation of what I was saying was clearly adversarial and uncharitable so I just got tired of it. It's entirely possible to have high standards for everyone (including the "stupid") without reducing the quality of the curriculum. But you're not interested in having that discussion because you're grinding some other axe about what you perceive to be the ideological takeover of the educational system.

Then make your case instead of pretending to not understand the statement. What is your solution to enable high quality curriculum and ensuring uniform success?

I didn't say anything about "uniform success".

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#438
post #404

So much dialogue is around how to pace and sequence the traditional math curriculum (geometry, trig, precalc, calc). Are those still the most important things to teach? And do they need to be taught and tested through working through the same calculations framed in the same narrow scenarios? When's the last time you solved a quadratic equation or did integration by parts in the real world? The concepts may be importa…

The central point of contention is not whether the Common Core, which already emphasizes depth over rote learning, ought go even deeper. The contention is also not over whether we ought have more combinatorics or Linear Algebra in the curriculum, and nor whether schools ought be able to pursue CS or Statistics programs — they are already free to do so, although schools across the entire nation have largely failed to persuade universities as to the reliability of their programs, and thus they rarely count for credits earned or requirements met.

Instead, the central question is whether all students ought be in the same class up until the senior year, regardless of their individual ambitions or abilities in math.

For context, Californian math classrooms may have ratios of 1 teacher to 40 students, and classroom sizes are not penalized past middle school. This is the context under which teachers must somehow address cohort variability, the same context under which we might somehow expect an Algebra teacher have units planned for those who are ready for Geometry. This is not a realistic assumption of teacher competency.

Equitable Math would be a huge win for private schools and after-school programs such as RSM.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not supposed to understand "the opposing argument", because it's fake. The real goal of this change is to increase the gap between kids whose family situation will give them an opportunity to learn actual math before college, and those whose family situation will keep them permanently locked out of college. This will ensure that the demographics of the next generation are even more skewed toward social instabi…

[flagged]

Please show me the part of my comment where I alleged a conspiracy? Or said anything about the woke?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't that different from 2nd and 3rd grade math in the US. There's no algebra in your link, but either way, you're confusing algebraic concepts, which are typically introduced in grade school even in the US and Algebra 1, which is just a conveniently named part of the overall math curriculum, not one that introduces Algebraic concepts for the first time.

Really? Setting up equations with unknown variables and solving them is not algebra?

The page you linked to doesn't have a single problem that requires "setting up equations with unknown variables and solving them." And as I mentioned, even in the US, "Algebra 1" isn't when Algebra in the sense of equations and variables is first introduced. Algebraic concepts are explicitly introduced around 5th grade (https://www.khanacademy.org/math/cc-fifth-grade-math/imp-alg...), but problems that could easily be considered algebraic (whether through word problems or explicit placeholders) may be introduced as early as 2nd/3rd grade.
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