Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California • Hacker News Board

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#431

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #430

salawat wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This worked so well for everyone involved the first time.

The first time the Nazis imposed censorship so that people couldn't do that. We should be wary of following in those footsteps.

Pretty sure millions were already in Soviet gulags with Pravda and Izvestiya cranking out official propaganda before anyone became a Nazi.

If you want to understand the terror of total state censorship practiced "the first time", then look to Lenin specifically and communism more generally.

Alternately, one can argue this climate of fear and systematic repression was present during the French revolution, but not localized to the entire state.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#432

Post by flipbrad » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

vhanda wrote: post #155

flipbrad wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even assuming we're just talking about traffic data rather than content of communications: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2016/25/section/87/enac... Ctrl+f for "generation"

Out of curiosity do you if you're within your rights to say "this will cost 'x' amount, we cannot afford it" or say if this is requested we would prefer to dissolve the company? Basically can the UK government compel you under the threat of criminal prosecution?

I don't know of any instance when someone has threatened to close the company, in the UK (but then again, these notices aren't public knowledge, so just because you don't hear something doesn't mean it doesn't happen).

Noncompliance with a data retention notice lands you in court, but it's a civil matter, not criminal - though if you then ignore an order of the court, you could be facing some jail time and/or a fine for contempt of court. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2016/25/section/95/

Regarding compliance costs, there's a vague provision in the IPA for contribution to your expenditure: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2016/25/section/249 A little more detail, although not much, can be found in the accompanying Communications Data Code of Practice

I am a lawyer, but I am not YOUR lawyer.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#433

Post by Goety » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #119

While I applaud Signal's response I expect this entire event (subpoena and response) will be provided as one of the exhibits to congress by the Department of Justice to justify their request that it be unlawful to provide such services. The DoJ will say, "See, here is this horrible crime we are investigating and because this company chose to make it impossible for law enforcement, with a warrant and a subpoena to get…

Valid points

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#434

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:28 AM UTC

thegrimmest wrote: post #426

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You prevent them from gaining power by winning debates against them and demonstrating to everyone why they're wrong. I mean have you actually seen the "science" used to claim even the existence of different races? It's all misleading statistics and pseudoscience. You group a bunch of people together based on geographical origin and then observe some differences in the averages between the two groups, ignoring that th…

I don't think any quotes are required around the research performed by Rushton & Jensen (2010)[1] and others that they build on. Doesn't it seem perfectly plausible that, much like other physical characteristics (height, body composition, heat tolerance, etc.) the meat in our skulls also varies between ethnic groups? Shouldn't this be researched and investigated like every other observation? Once you start studying g…

You're talking about the differences in averages. But that's meaningless. If the median Asian man is 5'8" and the median European man is 5'9" (or whatever the numbers are), this tells you nothing about any individual Asian or European males, because like 40% of Asian males will still be above the European median and half of Europeans will be below it.

And it's a completely arbitrary line. If Swedes are on average taller than Austrians, are they different "races" then? It's balderdash. There are genes that affect height and whatever else, but they're widely distributed throughout all "races."

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#435

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:35 AM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #431

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first time the Nazis imposed censorship so that people couldn't do that. We should be wary of following in those footsteps.

Pretty sure millions were already in Soviet gulags with Pravda and Izvestiya cranking out official propaganda before anyone became a Nazi. If you want to understand the terror of total state censorship practiced "the first time", then look to Lenin specifically and communism more generally. Alternately, one can argue this climate of fear and systematic repression was present during the French revolution, but not loca…

Censorship is also bad when communists do it, yes.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#436

Post by thegrimmest » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:36 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #434

thegrimmest wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any quotes are required around the research performed by Rushton & Jensen (2010)[1] and others that they build on. Doesn't it seem perfectly plausible that, much like other physical characteristics (height, body composition, heat tolerance, etc.) the meat in our skulls also varies between ethnic groups? Shouldn't this be researched and investigated like every other observation? Once you start studying g…

You're talking about the differences in averages. But that's meaningless. If the median Asian man is 5'8" and the median European man is 5'9" (or whatever the numbers are), this tells you nothing about any individual Asian or European males, because like 40% of Asian males will still be above the European median and half of Europeans will be below it. And it's a completely arbitrary line. If Swedes are on average tal…

It tells you a whole lot about the composition of either end of the bell curve. It means that in a given population the shortest people are much more likely to be, say, Taiwanese (average aheight 5'3"), and the tallest Dutch (average height 6'½").

Edit: To your point about group taxonomy, usually precision is only available to a level where genetic markers are present and distinct. This in turn comes from groups not interbreeding. For instance, using 23andMe's taxonomy, Sweden belongs to the "Scandinavian" group and Austria belongs to the "French & German" group:

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212169298...

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#437

Post by mooneater » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #271

mooneater wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you name some please? Do you mean like ACLU (BCCLA in Canada)

Wouldn't the Canadian equivalent be Canadian Civil Liberties Association, not British Columbia Civil Liberties Association?

Well based on the names you would think so. But in fact BCCLA fights at the federal level regularly, and is far more active than CCLA. BCCLA is way more effective and aggressive in pushing for meaningful change in Canada.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#438

Post by mooneater » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

amatecha wrote: post #326

gruez wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the Canadian equivalent be Canadian Civil Liberties Association, not British Columbia Civil Liberties Association?

Depends if you're in BC or not! haha

You would think so, but see my comment above

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#439

Post by strangeattractr » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:49 AM UTC

ASalazarMX wrote: post #344

Meekro wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since several people are asking why the ACLU isn't what it once was, let me answer that. In 1978, the ACLU successfully defended the right of neo-Nazis to march in the predominantly Jewish town of Skokie, Illinois. This action reflected their commitment to free speech, regardless of how offensive the speech might be. The movie "Skokie" and documentary "Mighty Ira" are based on this event-- I highly recommend them bec…

Freedom of speech is such a bizarre thing in USA. I understand citizens need the right to voice their opinion without fear of government repression; but citizens shouldn't believe they have the right to insult and behave antisocially to other citizens. Any kind of white supremacist behavior is not something to be treasured as freedom, because that enables their harmful behavior against other citizens.

Maybe try thinking about it for a moment instead of resorting to the boring heuristic of assuming Americans are dumb zealots treasuring rights because they are brainwashed.

People like you need to stop saying things like "I understand citizens need the right to voice their opinion without fear of government repression" because this is exactly the opposite of what you want. You want views that you consider objectionable to be subject to government repression. You don't have to qualify it, just admit it.

The reason people oppose restrictions on freedom of speech are fairly obvious to anyone who has thought about the question for more than 5 minutes. The moment you start deciding which speech is and isn't legal, you have now established a mechanism to censor. Ban 'hate speech', those who define the term now control the boundaries of allowable speech, and you can guarantee bad actors will seek those powers and abuse them.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#440

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

thegrimmest wrote: post #436

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about the differences in averages. But that's meaningless. If the median Asian man is 5'8" and the median European man is 5'9" (or whatever the numbers are), this tells you nothing about any individual Asian or European males, because like 40% of Asian males will still be above the European median and half of Europeans will be below it. And it's a completely arbitrary line. If Swedes are on average tal…

It tells you a whole lot about the composition of either end of the bell curve. It means that in a given population the shortest people are much more likely to be, say, Taiwanese (average aheight 5'3"), and the tallest Dutch (average height 6'½"). Edit: To your point about group taxonomy, usually precision is only available to a level where genetic markers are present and distinct. This in turn comes from groups not…

There are two adult brothers somewhere in New York City. They have both of the same parents. One of them is 5'3" and the other one is 6'½". What's the probability that one of them is Dutch and the other one is Taiwanese? If your answer wasn't zero I would like to see your work.