Live data from Hacker News

Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

nature.com

431–440 of 493 posts

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#431
post #218

What I find almost more interesting than the article itself is the comments that show a non-zero portion of the HN community (which I think is generally more intellectually curious and educated than average) are actually strongly arguing that ivermectin has strong effect, and even crazier, that it may be safer or more effective than the mRNA vaccines. Is this from being incapable of following science and drawing rati…

I'm just happy that HackerNews hasn't generated into a groupthink platform like what Ars Technica devolved into. Check the comment sections over there on articles regarding COVID and perhaps it's more to your liking and perhaps in your opinion the standard of discussion is higher over there.

I am one of those people that would trust Ivermectin more for treating (or prevention) of COVID compared to a mRNA-based vaccine and I have plenty of reasons for thinking so.

Some reasons I would avoid mRNA based vaccines:

- There's plenty of strokes into my family and I worry that I could easily get a stroke as well, perhaps due to genetically smaller arteries in my head (just a hunch). Seems many deaths of mRNA based vaccines were caused by blood clots.

- Looking at the numbers, I really don't believe COVID is very dangerous for most people. COVID is mostly dangerous for obese people, old people, people with co-morbidities and for those people it might make sense to use a vaccine (same we used to do with the flu every year).

- I feel the number of reported deaths are not correct, since in many countries, if people die with COVID, it's reported as a COVID death, while people might have died from e.g. cancer. As such, actual deaths are probably much lower.

- The media's unfair and sensationalist reporting of "horse dewormer" is one of the reasons I don't trust big media anymore (and there's many others in the past as well).

- Overall, Ivermectin is really very safe when using dosages based on body weight. It's cheap and easy to get. It's easy to mass produce. So even if Ivermectin would not work, there's very little risk when using the medicine responsibly.

- I've read many articles and looked at graphs of countries using Ivermectin and to me it seems there's a clear relation with the use of Ivermectin and the reduction in deaths and COVID cases.

- Even if the whole world would take the vaccine, it's very unlikely we'd stop COVID due to immune escape. Several sources already believe COVID is here to stay, like the flu. And I don't wanna bother to take every year a booster for some COVID mutation.

- In my view we can't be sure if the mRNA vaccines are totally safe in the long run. I will wait a couple of years (5 or more) and see if people receive any adverse long term effects. If not, I will be ok to accept mRNA-based vaccines in the future, but not going to take one right now.

- I was actually open to get the (traditional, e.g. weakened or killed off virus) Sinovac vaccine for COVID if it would make movement around easier in Thailand, but since Thailand now wants to combine the Sinovac vaccine with AstraZeneca, I won't bother.

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (I would never consume a medicine made for animals) Why not? I either pay $150+ all up for a doctor visit, prescription, etc for antibiotics, or $20 for a bottle of "fish antibiotics" at the feed store. Either way I get amoxicillin; but from the feed store I get 3x the amount and in smaller capsules which makes adjusting dose easier. We stock the "horse paste" ivermectin for our half dozen hounds, I've been known t…

I take it you have no problem eating dog food for your 3 square meals a day plus a few of those chew biscuits for a snack?

It is kind of crunchy.

Imagine the wet type would go rather well on Carr's Table Water crackers. Could jazz it up with a name like Pate di Cane, perhaps add a dollop of creme fraiche for appearance

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#433
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying re: vaccines? There's been several deaths believed to be caused by the vaccines and attributed as such by the FDA/CDC. And, you know, a few hundred thousand lives saved.

Not a troll: how do you know that number? Pfizer’s own RCT showed no difference in all cause mortality after six months

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm?s_cid=mm...

population normalized death incidence is down by 10x in vaccinated over unvaccinated (which includes recovered individuals in with the unvaccinated, so the number compared to susceptible is probably 20x). with a bit over half the population vaccinated that suggests that at least the 100,000 deaths since june would have been twice as bad without vaccinations. not including any effects of vaccination on reducing infection/transmission (and for all the hype about "waning" the protection against infection is still substantial).

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet there is a wealth of data on both the safety and the efficacy of covid vaccines, and there is also a wealth of data on the effects of getting covid. So why are people going for something without any data?

I specifically said boosters. However, there is no data on the long-term effects of the COVID vaccines, mRNA or otherwise. That's an indisputable scientific fact. They just haven't existed long enough for that data to be available. Hopefully a decade from now we'll discover that they were safe. We do have data on the long-term effects of Ivermectin. Someone who is not concerned about COVID will take neither a vaccine…

Can you show any other vaccine which has long term, but not short term negative side effects, which this concern might be based on?

Because this seems like whataboutism, and of course it's impossible to prove a negative, and people are dying while waiting.

> We do have data on the long-term effects of Ivermectin

At bi-annual dosage rates, yes. Not daily or even weekly.

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#435

I'm going to make what is probably a controversial statement, which is that, in my experience, most meta-analyses are trash. A meta-analysis is usually grounded on the assumption that an aggregation of multiple, well-conducted studies can provide significant information that may not be evident by taking each study individually. Essential to this assumption is the premise that those studies included in the meta-analys…

More over, they have a bit of a raid 0 problem.

There more studies you include, the greater the chance you'll get a bad one. If you look at where these meta-analyses often fail, you'll often see just a few "Bad" studies that end up corrupting their results.

You'd think the statistical tools they bring to bear in these would be resistant to this, but it appears to not be the case in several recent cases.

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#436
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case fatality has been declining for sure, but it's still at about 3%. So it shouldn't be that hard to find a signal. https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/covid-19-mortality-0 https://www.ajtmh.org/view/journals/tpmd/104/6/article-p2176...

The reported CFR may be in that region, but most credible sources estimate a much lower real CFR, due both to many undetected / asymptomatic infections, and confusion between deaths with & deaths caused by Covid-19. For a statistical reporting agency such as the ABS to claim to know the actual CFR with any level of certainty seems careless at the very least.

The ABS clearly sets out their method for calculating CFR, which is covid deaths divided by confirmed infections.

Yes, that is only a proxy for the overall all infection fatality rate. However, given the contact tracing, testing, and medical systems have been quite robust in Australia, it shouldn't be too far off the mark.

Furthermore, the 3% figure only applies to the population as a whole. According to the ABS, CFR climbs to over 30% for people 80 and over. Similarly, a recent American study found it to be about 21% [1].

So, back to the original point, it should be very easy to find a mortality signal in a RCT, which included that cohort.

[1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.09.21255193v...

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#437

Studies are irrelevant at this point, when we have population level data of over a billion people across India and Africa, and the massive disparities between states/countries that utilized Ivermectin, and those that did not. The drug is safe enough to be used based on this data alone. https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-iv... https://www.thedesertreview.com/news/national/indias-ivermec... https…

>Overall, we rate The Desert Review Right-Center Biased and Questionable based on the frequent promotion of pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, and misinformation regarding covid-19.

>Regarding Ivermectin, The Desert Review covers it extensively to the point where you would think this is an Ivermectin promotion source. Perhaps it is as nearly every article talks about the positive virtues of Ivermectin such as this Gaslighting Ivermectin, vaccines and the pandemic for profit and this The great Ivermectin deworming hoax. Many pro-Ivermectin opinion articles are written by Justus R. Hope, MD., who admits this name is a pseudonym underneath the articles he writes.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-desert-review-bias/

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#438
post #218

What I find almost more interesting than the article itself is the comments that show a non-zero portion of the HN community (which I think is generally more intellectually curious and educated than average) are actually strongly arguing that ivermectin has strong effect, and even crazier, that it may be safer or more effective than the mRNA vaccines. Is this from being incapable of following science and drawing rati…

I really think covid has broken hacker news. Maybe it’s instructive. It’s the most interesting tech story of the decade. I want to know everything about how the virus works, how we can fight back, what new ideas are out there, etc. for a community that loves articles that require thinking, it should be great. Instead, covid threads are awful. Comments which are pure drivel and talking points are the norm. Politics ha…

I am sleep-deprived and just caught myself reading this comment thread.

I've been avoiding HN threads about the COVID like I avoid any scaremongering ones on Reddit: it's just a massive pile of people that think they know better than most spreading constant misinformation.

The worst thing about the pandemic is it has made the vast majority of the populace an expert in epidemiology, biological containment, sociology, politics, economy, virology. Everyone has an opinion to share about it. Everyone has something to say about it.

In a forum where most people are technically-minded, this creates the negative and odious version of nerd sniping. Nerds talking out of their arse about stuff way over their head.

I don't like calling for censorship, but I wish dang would demote and let any COVID-related post slide off the front page 10x as fast as any normal thread. They did it for Bitcoin, and frankly it was not such a shitshow.

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#439

The Bayesian gambler in me wants to think this: The studies on ivermectin seem to be split between "good effect" and "no effect," and there don't seem to be any (by my extremely informal review! going off of memory here) in the camp of "bad effect." Seems reasonable to take ivermectin as a decent gamble to me while we wait on the dang science to get its head out of its butt.

We did this last year with hydroxychloroquine...all that happened was that some Lupus patients had a hard time getting their normal prescriptions filled. The "bad effect" doesn't have to be strictly medical, and may not show up in studies. It could be that other people who need the medicine can't get it, it could be that it discourages people from getting the vaccine, it could just be that we are lighting a pile of m…

There is not really a limited supply of this old, cheap, generic medication that we routinely feed to livestock.

If you are concerned about wasting money, consider that for one dose of (also unproven!) medication like convalescent plasma you could buy about a thousand doses of generic, cheap drugs like ivermectin. And that has been tried about 500000 times, still is unproven but is not considered controversial.

Re: Lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are unreliable

#440

There is no good faith argument against the vaccine. Just take it.

>There is no good faith argument against the vaccine. Factually false. 1. It isn't a vaccine. It's a chemical signal to make your body make things. 2. It doesn't have the efficacy against the plethora of variants that all coronaviruses like the cold continuously create. You can still get COVID-19 after being "fully vaccinated". Human beings lack the technology to vaccinate against coronaviruses, including COVID and t…

It seems that the second half of (3), and (5) are myths.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

Post reply on HN