Building a vision of life without work (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#431

Post by someelephant » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #90

someelephant wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like an update on his back issues. Back issues are often the result of people not dealing with stress in their life. Speaking from personal experience and a huge army of others who have had a similar experience (John Sarno crew).

While you may be correct in the general case, there's a much more obvious cause than stress in his case: Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome.

I thought some more about this. I'd like to know how many people with ED have back issues vs the general population. If the percentage is similar, then it's entirely possible his back issues are rooted in psychological stress.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#432

Post by kerkeslager » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

someelephant wrote: post #431

kerkeslager wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you may be correct in the general case, there's a much more obvious cause than stress in his case: Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome.

I thought some more about this. I'd like to know how many people with ED have back issues vs the general population. If the percentage is similar, then it's entirely possible his back issues are rooted in psychological stress.

A summary of the research on the subject as of June 2021 can be found here[1], but I would caution you about the way you're approaching this. It seems like you're letting your hypothesis drive what you want to observe, rather than letting observations drive your hypothesis. That is to say, it seems like you're looking for a connection between stress and back pain, rather than looking at the evidence and letting that tell you what's connected.

There's a pretty clear correlation between specific genes and EDS, and there's a pretty clear connection between EDS and chronic lower back pain ("cLBP" in the study). There's a connection between EDS and "psychological distress" noted, but the authors seem to indicate that EDS is causal in both the psychological distress and the cLBP, not the other way around. There's no noted correlation between psychological distress and cLBP. On the contrary, it seems like psychological distress and cLBP are actually correlated with different variants of EDS.

"Is back pain in an EDS patient caused by stress?" is a valid scientific question, but it's not one that's likely to yield any interesting results if you test it, because so far I see no evidence, even anecdotal, that the two might have a causal relationship. There are higher-priority questions to investigate that are more likely to yield interesting/productive results.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8176821/

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#433

Post by poslathian » Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

heurist wrote: post #168

My dream replacement for full time work: study and make art (a hobby I have plateaued in); exercise; become a better software developer and data analyst (I'm a manager these days); work part time (very part time) on a couple businesses I am involved with - mostly in creative R&D. I've recently become aware of an "elite" engineering firm that looks far into the future to build original and innovative technologies for…

What’s the firm? You can find me at my username at gmail if you didn’t want to broadcast

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#434

Post by someelephant » Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #432

someelephant wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought some more about this. I'd like to know how many people with ED have back issues vs the general population. If the percentage is similar, then it's entirely possible his back issues are rooted in psychological stress.

A summary of the research on the subject as of June 2021 can be found here[1], but I would caution you about the way you're approaching this. It seems like you're letting your hypothesis drive what you want to observe, rather than letting observations drive your hypothesis. That is to say, it seems like you're looking for a connection between stress and back pain, rather than looking at the evidence and letting that…

Love your analysis. And I appreciate you cautioning me on my approach. The interesting thing is I believe your attempt to find answers based on data here is the biggest trap there is when looking at back pain. Are structural issues with backs the cause of back pain? In Sarno's book he talks about how people will often feel back pain and then search for an answer. As a result they'll get a bunch of tests done and perhaps find that they have a bulging disk or some other abnormality. Then they assert that the bulging disk is the reason for their pain and perhaps consider some expensive invasive surgery. However, a huge proportion of the population has a bulging disk with no pain associated. Sure it's possible that the ones with pain are different from the ones without. Except back surgery rarely cures the pain and instead leaves people with life altering mobility issues permanently. Sadly it's often difficult for people to deal with psychological issues because they don't know where to begin. They might not even notice the things that bother them because they bury them so deep. In western culture it is much more acceptable to get metal rods shoved into your back than to see a therapist.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#435

Post by double0jimb0 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

mitjak wrote: post #235

double0jimb0 wrote: post #100

A thing the FIRE community misses: The felt sense of Agency is VERY different between a) still making some income, feeling like your hand is still somewhat on the wheel and b) sitting in the back seat, with nothing to do but continually recalculating if / how long your nest egg will last (this quickly turns pathological) I believe the slow build up of stress in B) is unmitigable (probably goes against our species’ DN…

> sitting in the back seat, with nothing to do but continually recalculating if / how long your nest egg will last this problem doesn't exist if you correctly math out your existence to guarantee survival. having the ability to choose how to spend your time is the definition of agency.

You missed my point. Said another way, "mathing out correctly your existence to guarantee survival" generates a type stress no one warns you about. Consider yourself now warned. Twice.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#436

Post by mitjak » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

heliodor wrote: post #408

mitjak wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why should we compete? what does "victory" amount to? i'd gladly give up winning in favour of some form of survival guarantee and freedom to choose work rather than require it for survival.

You're thinking of this from the wrong point of view. This is about evolution and dominance. A culture in which work is highly valued (even so far as at the expense of the individual) will expand and squeeze out other cultures. The same way a successful gene will reproduce and take over. Two excellent books that delve into this area are "Stumbling on Happiness" and "Sapiens".

i think "evolution" is not some purely natural process that plays out separately from how we think. e.g. forming societies where we support and elevate each other instead of competing is also a potential evolutionary future. societies where whatever means are necessary _results_ in an evolutionary advantage will "win", not those who necessarily work harder. capitalism-driven competition is just gamification of exploitation and doesn't inherently lead to an evolutionary advantage. it's just one of many ways to get there.