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Bitcoin Is Time

dergigi.com

431–440 of 1001 posts

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#431

Let me fix that title. Happy to be downvoted into negative territory. I only have 11 points. Go ahead. "Bitcoin Is A Waste of Time (and Resources)" What Bitcoin has done is that it taught people they can come together in a sustained flash mob (like an on-the-fly hedge fund operation) and manipulate the price of speculative assets by creating artificial short-term pump-n-dump type demand. Bitcoin has trained our colle…

I've been saying the same damn thing about automobiles man, horses already have self driving even! and they don't pollute like cars. Look at the mess we're in now! who's laughing?? Cars pollute and need roads, we had to build so many roads and gas stations. We even had to go to war to make sure we have enough oil.

I agree that cars are a horrible solution to the problem of transporting people and goods.

It's only by virtue of history and our willingness to accept massive loss of life and limb every year that cars, driven at 100 kph by sleepy, angry, elderly or distracted people, are still a thing.

Not to mention the massive loss of life and limb from climate change spurred by cars.

You're making a solid point.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sour grapes syndrome is a result of pride, I think. Or maybe it comes from people who have read an Econo101 textbook and who have spent a lot of time trying to explain a crowd of Bitcoin enthusiasts why their reasoning is wrong but no one has been listening to them so far so they are bored. Back in the time I used to spend my days on a forum about Economics. Every other week there was a random guy who signed up jus…

Would you care to share your Econo101 knowledge? I'm not an economist, but nothing has convinced me yet that bitcoin is not the best form of money.

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems inflammatory (covetousness?). My take is HN commenters try to typically reason through articles with thought and an open mind. I would wager there are so many bitcoin bros who hype ad nausea that beckons the skepticism you see here.

"Bitcoin bros" is inflammatory and slanderous. Please edit your comment.

You have called lock downs "arrogant and threatening authoritarian movements" and told someone that saying racist hate groups lead to violence is "hyperbole that isn't going to work for you much longer". You also said that "hn is filled with indignant nocoiners".

I think acting offended by 'bitcoin bros' is hypocritical.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#435
post #8

Time is money. Bitcoin is wasted time. And wasted money. And wasted energy.

To be less glib, I think the article makes it clear just how inordinately difficult blockchains make their lives when they have to build, from scratch, a reliable definition of time. If you could have a trusted time source, you could at a stroke get rid of one of the most egregious flaws in bitcoin, its vast wastage of energy, because of its 'proof of work' mining. Bitcoin miners are running at full pelt 24/7, pickin…

> And, when bitcoiners tell you that relying on a centralised source, or even a quorum of sources, is completely unacceptable, why then are the same people happy to use smart contracts where the use of centralised oracles is apparently both acceptable and commonplace?

I think you're largely describing two separate camps within bitcoin hodlers. Some are 'gold-bug' types that value security and individual liberty above all else, and so are very conservative in their attitude towards Bitcoin development. Others are 'cyberpunk' types that value technological capability and functionality, and are much more liberal and exploratory in what they'd like to see Bitcoin become.

When you say "same people", I think they are rare, and this statement makes a bit of a false lack-of-dichotomy.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#436
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop shilling. And to have the galls to say something like Nano has the ability to take on Bitcoin just indicates that you very new to this market - and thus want to make a quick buck by shilling your random shitcoin. The thing which Bitcoin has, and that few others can match, is acceptability from a large swatch of investors and predictable security/emission schedule. And, just fyi, Nano is not made of users. Go to…

> most of us are in here for the money and don't give two hoots of the technology Given that the technology determines the timeframe over which you can make money, this seems like a weird position to take.

No - not necessarily. IN crypto, it is quite possible to multiply your money when investing in altcoins - purely based on shilling and positioning with no technology to speak of. This is what the OP likely is trying to do here.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying the same damn thing about automobiles man, horses already have self driving even! and they don't pollute like cars. Look at the mess we're in now! who's laughing?? Cars pollute and need roads, we had to build so many roads and gas stations. We even had to go to war to make sure we have enough oil.

I guess the difference is cars are useful. What can I do with a bitcoin except hope to sell it for more USD later?

The only answer that makes any sense is that you can do things that are otherwise illegal or banned by major companies.

But the drawbacks are plentiful, even for this sort of use case. And this use case doesn't get easier with a whole bunch of speculation. In fact, it gets harder.

And there's no particular reason for such users to leave it in a volatile form. Rather, they would be rational to cash out once the illegal transaction is over.

So the real value of bitcoin should be the expected float for all the crypto-compatible types of black market transactions. Which I'm quite sure is many orders of magnitude below the current price.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#439
post #424
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of every currency is expressed in other currencies. How else would you do it? Are you saying there is nothing in existence which can really be considered "money" except maybe the US dollar?

The value of a currency is expressed in purchasing power. Exchange rates are prices of currencies in terms of other currencies, they don't tell us anything about purchasing power.

Sure, the actual utility of the currency might be best measured with purchasing power and not exchange rates. Same with Bitcoin or anything else, though.

Re: Bitcoin Is Time

#440
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the properties of gold that roughly held true for centuries was a stable value. When gold threatened to become too scarce for a growing economy the incentive to mine, explore, and develop new mining technology increased. Goldbugs often point out that an ounce of gold has always been close to the price of a nice suit (admittedly a fuzzy measure, and it’s sometimes a really nice suit, and sometimes just a really…

Because it's the one that's caught on. There's no actual need for inherent utility of it that can't be papered over by running everything through one of a few big exchanges. Or, preferably, ONE big exchange, where all settlements can take place off-chain and the blockchain sits in a big vault and everyone just trusts you can redeem your account balance for Bitcoin if you ever want it, but you won't want it, because t…

> Or, preferably, ONE big exchange, where all settlements can take place off-chain and the blockchain sits in a big vault and everyone just trusts you can redeem your account balance for Bitcoin if you ever want it, but you won't want it, because the balance is more valuable than the actual Bitcoin.

That's an important point, because it prompts the question: what is the problem that Bitcoin is solving if the preferable outcome is that it does exactly the same things that gold and centralized banks already do?

The more that I hear people justify slow transaction times, high fees, and a general lack of platform evolution, the more it sounds to me like the only problem that Bitcoin is solving in the real world is that gold is already stable, and speculators need a new thing to jump on. The arguments people are making today about why slow transactions are irrelevant are not the same arguments that people were making when Bitcoin was new. It's revisionist history. And when people are talking about centralization as the end goal... this is also part of why I'm skeptical about claims that proof of stake is going to solve anything on the environmental front, or that microtransactions are ever actually going to get better.

The overwhelming perspective I'm seeing here is that nobody involved in speculating on Bitcoin cares about the technological side at all, and I don't see what incentive there is for anyone to make mining easier, cheaper, more democratic, or more environmentally friendly. The whole point seems to be that people want to get in early and then erect as high barriers of entry as possible. What makes people think that anyone speculating on Bitcoin is going to care about proof of stake? At the point where bitcoin becomes a nationally backed currency that is just a backbone for other smaller systems and is (for most people) completely independent from their regular everyday transactions -- there's no advantage to creating that world, that is the world we already have. The only difference is that a few people on Reddit haven't gotten rich off of the world we have.

The fact that the majority of the market is still standardized on Bitcoin despite a plurality of clearly better coins drives home to me that the discussion about Bitcoin has nothing to do with practical merits of the system, and everything to do with a bunch of people trying to extract as much money as possible before tragedy of the commons sets in. We can make centralized banks without bitcoin. If that's the end goal, then we should absolutely get rid of the blockchain because blockchain is not necessary for a centralized bank exchange with a small number of government-level actors.

I'm surrounded by people who tell me that Bitcoin is a giant innovation, but who are then openly hostile to any kind of improvement to the platform and who are continually dismissing valid criticisms of its technology and governance model as irrelevant because those criticisms don't directly impact Bitcoin's value as a purely speculative currency. What you're describing when you propose a single, centralized exchange is, "we want to make banks a second time the same way, except less efficiently with fundamentally outdated technology, because we want some of the pie this time."

Which, great, but as a non-speculator, why on earth should I support that or care about it?

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