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Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#431

Post by alkonaut »

loveistheanswer wrote: post #359
alkonaut wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this argument is misdirected. It's not that we can't accept the number of dead. Even at the top IFR of 1-2%, society could "stand" seeing that many dead. But that figure (the one you are comparing to the deaths from smoking) is with mostly functioning healthcare. It's with strict mitigations. Such mitigations aren't sustainable long term. Without those mitigations you'd be likely to have healthcare overload.…

What is preventing health care from being able to scale up? In the US, politicians, bureaucrats, and doctors have been working together for decades to artificially limit the number of doctors.[1] [1] https://qz.com/1676207/the-us-is-on-the-verge-of-a-devastati...

Nothing but time and money prevents scaling. If we really really wanted to we could add a lot more doctors and nurses several years from now if they start training today.

Obviously a plan that doesn’t help the first few years. So not useful in this pandemic, but perhaps something to think about.

I think your link is very US centric, this problem exists in the whole world (although the US isn’t alone in having a doctor shortage that could be called artificial).

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#432

Post by chkaloon »

gregwebs wrote: post #411

The vaccine has 95% efficacy in initial controlled trials. It is almost impossible to reach (within 1%) of that same level of effectiveness in the real world as claimed here. The real world has a big chunk of the population with an immune system that doesn't respond nearly as well to the vaccine (such as the elderly). Here is an overview of an Israeli study that was finding a more realistic effectiveness of 70% https…

Of course it's also possible the outcome in the original clinical study underestimated the efficacy.

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#433

Post by marshmallow_12 »

helge9210 wrote: post #426
marshmallow_12 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wanting to practice religion freely cannot be called "destructive" or "totalitarian". certainly no more than the blm riots in america. Those were certainly destructive and (imho)somewhat totalitarian in their desire to impose their agenda on everyone. The way i see it you have 2 options; either acknowledge you are wrong that normal countries wouldn't call this out as such, or explain why the blm riots are quantifiabl…

Practicing religion freely is OK. Forcing members of the community to practice religion is not OK. Children are denied access to education beyond religious. They are forbidden to study math, English, Hebrew, they don't have access to internet. They are denied access to justice system and law enforcement. Sometimes they are denied necessary medical attention because of religious beliefs of the adults (for example, rel…

the cognitive dissonance is dizzying! first of all your relative is a fool who was practicing ignorance, not religion. Moving on, your whole argument is based on the preconceived notion that secularism is correct which clouds your judgement. Teaching your child your religion is called "forcing them"; whereas depriving them of any intellectual tools to help them find meaning in their lives is ideal. On to your allegations; Their whole education system is dependent on them knowing hebrew so i don't know what you meant by that. As for being deprived of internet; so what? Internet isn't a human right. Not allowed to learn english? Are you angry at your parents for not teaching you spanish? i can't actually find anything argument you make that isn't bs and factually incorrect. Anecdotal evidence non withstanding.

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#434

Post by flemhans »

jimbokun wrote: post #381
scrollaway wrote: post #5

Israel feels like the only nation taking the importance and urgency of vaccination seriously. Here in Europe, articles are coming out complaining that the slow vaccination could be harming the economy which, well, fucking duh. ( https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/154626/c... ) Fast rollout. Involve pharmacies. Involve the army. Distribute widely and efficiently. Prepare for months before the vaccine…

I think it's almost entirely a supply issue? Israel, UK and USA procured large amount of doses ahead of time, and now EU is having trouble getting enough doses for their population. That was my understanding.

In Denmark it's 100% a supply issue.

There's vaccination centers set up all around the country which are being utilized at 1-5% capacity, just waiting for vaccines to arrive.

They are upgrading the infrastructure even more despite that, anticipating being able to vaccinate 10% of the population per day.

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#435

Post by ishjoh »

roelschroeven wrote: post #67
scrollaway wrote: post #5

Israel feels like the only nation taking the importance and urgency of vaccination seriously. Here in Europe, articles are coming out complaining that the slow vaccination could be harming the economy which, well, fucking duh. ( https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/154626/c... ) Fast rollout. Involve pharmacies. Involve the army. Distribute widely and efficiently. Prepare for months before the vaccine…

There's a limited supply. Sure, Europe could have negotiated better, or could have chosen to pay more and get more vaccine doses faster. But that just means other countries get less doses. As long as production isn't ramped up enormously, we're dealing with a zero sum game. I think we can look at countries that manage to get a sufficient supply with admiration. Envy, yes. I agree that in Belgium things are not as wel…

If Europe were willing to pay higher prices it's possible that suppliers would have built more factories. In fact given the size of the EU and it's negotiating power that could have been a requirement of the deal, especially if the deal was made at the beginning of the pandemic, so I disagree that it has to be zero sum.

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#436

Post by Dma54rhs »

f6v wrote: post #385
rock_artist wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give some balance. Just as I got my second jab and waiting the 10min needed for surveillance. (Tel Aviv, Israel) > Israel feels like the only nation taking the importance and urgency of vaccination seriously. It's a mixed situation here. * Israel supposedly paid 3 times more than others per shot (but if it works, it's cheaper than the economy losses). * Israel has free public health care. * All public health care…

Belgium is a small, densely populated country. One of the highest average salaries in Europe. Not to mention great universities and flourishing biotech sector. Bottom line: this country can afford to pay for, and should be able to produce a lot of vaccines. Yet it doesn’t, I guess it’s some kind of EU bureaucracy thing. The UK seems to be doing much better since they’re not tied by the EU supply strategy.

There are not enough vaccines at the moment anyway since EU failed miserably at getting them. You can't really make a massive effort of maybe even asking military to help etc if there are not enough jabs. Then it's smarter to use the ones you have in q strategic manner.

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#437

Post by loveistheanswer »

alkonaut wrote: post #431
loveistheanswer wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is preventing health care from being able to scale up? In the US, politicians, bureaucrats, and doctors have been working together for decades to artificially limit the number of doctors.[1] [1] https://qz.com/1676207/the-us-is-on-the-verge-of-a-devastati...

Nothing but time and money prevents scaling. If we really really wanted to we could add a lot more doctors and nurses several years from now if they start training today. Obviously a plan that doesn’t help the first few years. So not useful in this pandemic, but perhaps something to think about. I think your link is very US centric, this problem exists in the whole world (although the US isn’t alone in having a docto…

>Nothing but time and money prevents scaling. If we really really wanted to we could add a lot more doctors and nurses several years from now if they start training today.

Time and money are not the only factors. Political will power and incentives are also important factors.

Take World War 2 for example. Time was in short supply, but will power was not. As a result, manufacturing and training were scaled up quicker than ever before in history.

As indicated by the artificial doctor shortage, it would seem health care is politically and financially disincentivized to scale up.

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#438

Post by smileybarry »

jacquesm wrote: post #144
rock_artist wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give some balance. Just as I got my second jab and waiting the 10min needed for surveillance. (Tel Aviv, Israel) > Israel feels like the only nation taking the importance and urgency of vaccination seriously. It's a mixed situation here. * Israel supposedly paid 3 times more than others per shot (but if it works, it's cheaper than the economy losses). * Israel has free public health care. * All public health care…

> Israel supposedly paid 3 times more than others per shot More than that even, closer to a factor of 10. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/the-cost-of-vaccinating-is... $47 / head! VS closer to $5 in other countries.

The mRNA vaccines are about $20 per shot[1], making it $40 / head, "MSRP".

1: https://observer.com/2020/11/covid19-vaccine-price-pfizer-mo...

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#439

Post by smileybarry »

siculars wrote: post #424
nir wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it's the HMO system here, much more than the military. Every Israeli, by law, has healthcare insurance. It works much like income tax - deducted automatically from your pay, varies according to income level, and is transferred directly to the HMO you pick among several options which compete (quite vigorously) with each other.

Na. Lots of places have socialized medicine like Israel. Not many of them, if any of them, are having the successful rollout Israel is enjoying. The entire Israeli society is prepared for this sort of event more so than any other in the world. Civil society, healthcare (as you pointed out), military and, dare I say, even religious all work together to pull this off.

I agree with Nir, HMOs are carrying a huge amount of the load here (after the government supplying all those vaccines). You have 4 HMOs total -- one of them (Clalit) being huge -- so there's not much fragmentation; a very fast crew of health workers which allows us to reach that level of vaccinations/day; and an existing well-tested infrastructure for flu vaccines, which are in high demand each year.

I don't think the military was involved yet, and religion was in fact working against vaccination efforts as a few anti-vax rabbis drove sectors of the Haredi population off.

EDIT: Saw another comment about a person in uniform doing the immunization so I might've been wrong about the army's involvement. But either way most comments referring to military involvement mean i.e. wartime levels of involvement, military handing out gas masks door-to-door etc. We're not at the level that the army is a sizable force, from what I can tell. (Except immunizing their own soldiers of course)

Re: Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic Covid-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine

#440

Post by amit_m »

tehjoker wrote: post #331
scrollaway wrote: post #5

Israel feels like the only nation taking the importance and urgency of vaccination seriously. Here in Europe, articles are coming out complaining that the slow vaccination could be harming the economy which, well, fucking duh. ( https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/154626/c... ) Fast rollout. Involve pharmacies. Involve the army. Distribute widely and efficiently. Prepare for months before the vaccine…

Except for Palestinians of course where they refuse their legal duties as an occupying power to render medical aid. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/03/israel-giving-5000-vaccine-d...

The Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza have their own healthcare systems. This was part of the Oslo accords. Plus, any Israeli medic who goes to Gaza is likely to be slaughtered. They wouldn’t trust vaccines coming from Israel anyway. Decades of war and demonization have done their part.

Israel is vaccinating the Palestinian residents of east Jerusalem since they are part of the Israeli medical system.

Needless to say that the Arab citizens of Israel (20% of Israel’s population, many of whom identify as Palestinian) have full access to vaccines.

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