School or Prison • Hacker News Board

Re: School or Prison

#431

Post by qPM9l3XJrF » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #419

qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bring back flogging! Another great way to deal with male criminals would be to cut their balls off. Solves the root problem.

We ban accounts that post like this. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the intended spirit of the site.

I didn't mean to be snarky, that is my unironic take. Our current prison system delivers a horrible punishment, but in a way people can pretend it's not occurring. It would be better to deliver a less horrible punishment and make it public so people know it is occurring. Not only would this be more humane, it also improves the deterrent value of punishment. With the current justice system, people can pretend like doing crimes makes them into some sort of badass. Public humiliation / castration helps clarify that. The goal is to deter crime effectively with as little suffering as possible.

Re: School or Prison

#432

Post by in_cahoots » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:06 AM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #176

hombre_fatal wrote: post #162

In one of the largest high schools in Texas, we weren't allowed to leave campus, we couldn't even take our lunch out of the double doors and eat our sandwich outside. It's something I absolutely despise about our contemporary culture. I live in Latin America now and envy the kids for getting 45 minutes free at lunch time to hang out outside, socialize, buy from the street vendors that will gather at that time, maybe…

Our principal refused to let students leave campus, as a student had gotten in a car wreck over lunch and died at a previous school. So, there's some logic there. They are nominally responsible for you during school hours.

That seems reasonable to me. Lunch breaks are typically ~20 minutes long in high school. It’s easy to think, “I can go pick up food 10 minutes away” without considering the line to exit the parking lot, walking to the car, etc. A bunch of teenagers speeding to beat the bell is a terrible idea, and can definitely lead to tickets or deaths.

Re: School or Prison

#433

Post by anonyfelon » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

jollofricepeas wrote: post #372

nolongerlowres wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting this. I couldn’t believe the other comments trying to equate schools with prison. It’s unbelievable how we treat prisoners in the US. I wish there was more I could do than vote and donate to causes like the ACLU. Starting to realize that my beliefs are in the minority re: how to treat fellow countrymen, even those who have committed crimes.

For those who were wondering here’s the US recidivism rates as of 2018. Smells like success... - An estimated 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years. - Almost half (47%) of prisoners who did not have an arrest within 3 years of release were arrested during years 4 through 9. - More than three-quarters (77%) of released drug ofenders were arrested for a non-…

I am one of the lucky ones who never went back.

I got out over 20 years ago, and I was determined to do whatever it took to successfully complete my parole and put all that crap behind me.

I still have scars. I'm 47 now. Dentures are in my near future because of the fighting from my prison days.

I had nightmares about the fighting and killing (saw two guys get killed mere feet away from me) for 15 years after getting out.

As time goes by the memories are less and less, but they never go away.

It changes you permanently.

Re: School or Prison

#434

Post by endominus » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:11 AM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #410

endominus wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can test that by looking at data from countries with less abusive prison systems. IIRC, they typically have much lower recidivism rates.

That 100% ignores cultural, education, diversity, and tons of other issues. Yea, I bet recidivism is low in Norway, who also has a very small chapter of MS13 or whatever gang you like, coincidentally. I disagree you can look to some other country and make a fair comparison. The only way to do it would be to look at rates before and after some policy change.

Except that you can't do that either because someone acting in bad faith can just say that there were other confounders, because there will always be other confounders, since we can't make a proper control group out of a society. Immigration/emigration, other policy changes on county/state/federal level, delayed effects of 30-year old policies (such as Roe vs. Wade or banning lead in gasoline), etc. There's no such thing as fair comparisons in the social sciences; we can only and have to act on imperfect information.

Re: School or Prison

#435

Post by sneak » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:12 AM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #394

sneak wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like that policy needs to be broken as thoroughly and consistently as possible, provided that you are in a one-party consent state. I can't imagine any good reason for that policy other than covering for terrible people.

> provided that you are in a one-party consent state Is there an expectation of privacy in a public school classroom?

I'm no lawyer, but if I had to bet, I would assume that the wiretapping laws that would no doubt zealously be applied to such a recording event (if it ruffled the right feathers) wouldn't have an exception for that, as they were written before even speakerphones came into wide use.

Re: School or Prison

#436

Post by in_cahoots » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:13 AM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #249

dorkwood wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was eight years old I had a teacher who told us that if we needed to use the bathroom, rather than ask "can I use the bathroom?" we should instead say "I'm going to the bathroom". She said she would never stop us from going, but that we should at least let her know why we're leaving the room. I never got to experience that again at school after I left the second grade.

I like her. Last time I taught HS I told my students that I would never deny them the right to go to the bathroom, but that if they went more than three times in a week (or something) I would send a note to the nurse so she could discuss a possible health issue with them and their parents.

That is ridiculous, and exactly the problem I remember from middle school (by high school the teachers had loosened up). 50% of your students are girls experiencing menstruation for the first time. Speaking from experience, in the first few years it pops up by surprise, or use go through pads (teenagers use pads instead of tampons generally, and they go bad more quickky) quicker than you expect. And since you normally change your pad in the morning before school, there’s a fixed window when you need to change it again.

Again speaking from experience, there’s nothing more humiliating than leaving a bloody mark in your desk because your teacher limits bathroom passes. And even if you think that you would make an exception, many well-behaved students won’t speak up, hoping they can make it to the next class. If you’re ‘enlightened’ enough to let your students go to the bathroom three times a week, you’re enlightened enough to call the truants on their BS without penalizing the rest of the class.

Re: School or Prison

#437

Post by theprotocol » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:15 AM UTC

ficklepickle wrote: post #189

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember sitting in third grade class, red in the face, hand patiently up in the air for minutes straight, simultaneously crying and pissing myself in my chair while Tiffany pointed and laughed at me with her bright red cheeks! I was a good kid! If I had of robbed or killed someone and been to Juvenile Hall, my pants would probably have been dry.

There is a middle ground between passive and aggressive called assertive. That is what one should aim for. The world chews up and spits out good kids. I vowed early on that I wouldn't let anyone shit on me again and it really shaped my early life, not necessarily for the better. I overshot assertive by a decent margin. Fortunately, I eventually settled into a healthy middle ground. I do wonder if there is a method of…

I have the same experience. I also overshot "assertive," but the alternative was that everyone would continue to steamroll me to the point of despair. Assertive wasn't enough to safeguard my dignity.

It is indeed exactly as you said. The world chewed me up for being innocent. I was routinely physically assaulted at school. These things were passed off as roughhousing or joking and the adults never intervened, and some even seemed to appreciate the "humor."

The adults rolled their eyes at me essentially for being weak, it was sort of like "sigh, what are we gonna do with that kid?" It occurs to me now that these were bitter, jaded people who hated a child for his naiveté.

If I defended myself, I was the bad guy. At some point I thought: "it doesn't make sense that I am the one who is right and that everyone else is wrong, so maybe I should be more like those guys." But then I got punished too. For example, it was considered funny for people to kick me in the balls at times. It had happened to me 10+ times and nobody got punished. Regrettably, I did it once to another kid and it was a scandal and I got punished.

I am in a healthy place now but I thank God I got through the teen and young adult years without becoming a criminal. I think I easily could have, because I came out of school a deeply damaged individual.

Re: School or Prison

#438

Post by endominus » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:19 AM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #412

endominus wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crime may be trending down, but I think the perception is that it's more common - I remember reading the results of multiple polls to that effect over the last decade. People consistently believe that crime has gotten worse. Part of there blame was placed on the news media overreporting crime stories (as what else are they going to talk about when nothing exciting is happening?) which skews public perception of the a…

The polling I'm familiar with (e.g. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx ) indicates that there's been a significant shift. In particular I'd point at the "too tough, not tough enough or about right" question; in 1992, the idea that we shouldn't be tougher on crime was quite radical and the idea that we're too tough on crime was practically nonexistent.

That particular question has shifted, sure. But in the early 90s, wasn't crime at historic highs in the country? In any case, it has shifted to the point that only twice as many people believe that we should be tougher on crime rather than more lenient. But look at the chart for the question "Is there more crime in the U.S. than there was a year ago, or less?" It shows that "More" dominates "Less" at around 65% - 20%, and has done so since the turn of the millenium. The majority still believe that crime gets worse, year on year.

Re: School or Prison

#439

Post by escape_goat » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:40 AM UTC

cbozeman wrote: post #425

escape_goat wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I like data — meaningful data — just as much as the next person here, but this is a little bit of a strawman argument, isn't it. You're not defending a comment that was based on any data, you're defending the a priori reasoning with which someone decided to rebut someone's reportage of own experience. I do not think you would stand for that for one second if the topic was operating system development or databas…

LOL, no... "lived experience" is exactly the same as "an anecdote". There's literally zero difference. Its a different way of saying, "a story". Anecdotes are interrogable as well. Hell, its in the goddamn definition of the word. an·ec·dote /ˈanəkˌdōt/ noun a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person. Your key word in that definition is "real".

Your condescension really places your comment beyond any hope of redemption, but in a different context I might have explained to you what the word 'interrogable' meant with relative kindness, which of course is not going to happen, now. If HN had a block button I would use it.

Re: School or Prison

#440

Post by highmastdon » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 6:53 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #180

highmastdon wrote: post #160

Just the idea of a school is worse than a prison: - it’s mandatory - closed confinement - not allowed to do what you want in that closed area - you’re being told what to do for at least 8-14 years - you’re being told when to pee - during the years there is no choice in what you want to learn And at the end of your school/studies you’re asked to be creative and responsible

The following is specific to the USA: 1. School is not mandatory; education is mandatory. Ask any home schooler. A rare few private schools offer quite different experiences than the typical public school (e.g., the University of Chicago Laboratory Schools). This applies also to "closed confinement" and "control". Of course, opting out requires enlightened parenting and lots of resources. 2. You are constantly told w…

I feel USA is more liberal in that perspective. I would agree with the system if the options you mention were also available in our country (NL) but they aren’t. You can’t even move to homeschooling when you’ve only enlisted one of your children to a public school. As soon as you e done that there’s no way back. Not even for future children or when you come to the conclusion that your child doesn’t flourish after a year of kindergarten. (Here a chool is when they are 4 years old and up)