Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#431

Post by gruez » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

grishka wrote: post #408

gruez wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That advice might be feasible for the average HN reader, but what about the average person? How resistant do you think they will be against a social engineering attack telling them to disable code signing?

So let them install that malware and have their data stolen despite all warnings because they deserve it? We can't have safety nets everywhere, and we, in fact, don't. We allow everyone to drive, use knives and handle all kinds of potentially dangerous stuff every day, but for some reason can't trust them with their own phones. Some mistakes are costly, but people learn from them. Such is life.

>We allow everyone to drive, use knives and handle all kinds of potentially dangerous stuff every day, but for some reason can't trust them with their own phones.

Can you get social engineered into crashing a car or stabbing yourself? The difference here is that people most likely know the consequences of their actions, unlike with phones/computers where the consequences are nebulous.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#432

Post by nabla9 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

fishywang wrote: post #352

My prediction is that this will backfire so badly for Apple. Apple clearly underestimated how popular Unreal Engine is to game developers. Apple probably expect developers to just switch to other engines when they took UE away from them, but in reality most of the developers currently using UE will just stop publishing on Apple's platforms because that's no longer a profitable platform (consider the investment for de…

I'm sure that Tim Sweeney has talked with Tencent (owns 40% of Epic) about his plans beforehand. Tencent owns Riot Games (League Of Legends) and parts of several other gaming companies. They also own WeChat,WeGame, QQ, etc.

Epic may be just a test case. Everyone else is watching and if Apple blinks, they will side with Epic and Apple must give up huge revenue stream.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#433

Post by falcolas » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

_qulr wrote: post #410

floatingatoll wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic expressly snuck code through the door to activate a user-visible feature in direct prohibition to App Store rules. Apple could have revoked their developer certificate in response, which would have essentially killed all installations of Fortnite iOS/Mac worldwide within 24 hours. That they are merely revoking their ability to sign new code and giving them 2 weeks to perform an orderly shutdown is far less draco…

> Notarization is about protecting users who are not capable of making an informed decision about code safety from developers who refuse to comply with Apple's terms of service. No, notarization is about preventing malware. That's all. This has been promised to us by Apple many many times. Malware prevention only. Fortnite is not malware.

> Fortnite is not malware.

Well, it kinda is, isn't it?

> Programs are also considered malware if they secretly act against the interests of the computer user.

Is convincing children that they need to spend money to not be a "default" really in the interest of a computer user? Is taking advantage of gambling addictions with lootboxes really in the interest of a computer user (or society at large)?

I get what you really mean, and I'm probably stretching the definition a bit much; Yet it's worth considering if Fortnight is really a good thing in the first place.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#434

Post by colinmhayes » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

quotha wrote: post #261

ping_pong wrote: post #183

How is this legal? Apple is so blinded by their arrogance that they don't see that this will lead to the App Store getting severely regulated. Look at Uber for a great example. It took years, but Uber and Lyft were finally handed a business-destroying law that will hurt them. It will only take a few months for the rest of the US to adopt similar strategies as well. After the congressional hearings a few weeks ago, Ap…

I hear ya, but something smells real bad about how Epic decided to wage this war. They were clearly picking this fight, now I am not sure that was such a good idea.

Epic's goal of creating a competing app store would be a huge boon for consumers. Obviously they picked this fight, and I'm happy they did, because if they're successful app prices will come down due to the reduced fees markets provide.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#435

Post by ernst_klim » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

grishka wrote: post #408

gruez wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That advice might be feasible for the average HN reader, but what about the average person? How resistant do you think they will be against a social engineering attack telling them to disable code signing?

So let them install that malware and have their data stolen despite all warnings because they deserve it? We can't have safety nets everywhere, and we, in fact, don't. We allow everyone to drive, use knives and handle all kinds of potentially dangerous stuff every day, but for some reason can't trust them with their own phones. Some mistakes are costly, but people learn from them. Such is life.

> We allow everyone to drive, use knives

Ah, these are pretty simple things. We don't allow to sell any drugs, or some drugs without prescription, because drugs are hard and require education. So do computers.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#436

Post by grishka » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #416

babaganoosh89 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notarizing has been mandatory since Catalina: https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a

You can bypass it: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202491

You can also disable AMFI, the component that enforces signatures and entitlements, altogether, but you have first to disable SIP completely by either booting into Linux of by patching the kernel and then setting the requisite NVRAM variable directly.

(`spctl` does not, in fact, disable it completely.)

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#437

Post by umvi » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

spzb wrote: post #184

Animats wrote: post #149

Note that this applies to Mac systems, not just IOS. Apple is trying to prevent Unreal Engine from working on any Apple-controlled platform. So, if you're a gamer or a game developer, do not buy a Mac . Developers now using Macs need to be planning an exit strategy.

Or switch to Unity

ugh... unity is a pain

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#438

Post by fermienrico » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

throwaw4y-plate wrote: post #427

fermienrico wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fine with this for most things except my phone. I trust Apple more than any party in the world. Even the government. Fortnight devs, Epic, whatever are not even on the same radar. They'll sell your privacy in milliseconds if they can get 2.5 cents for it. I would never ever own an open source phone. Not because the operating system is open source (probably good that it has eyes on it) but there is no way to cont…

>I trust Apple more than any party in the world. That opinion is likely to be a bit of an outlier, heh.

I honestly do. Who would you trust more?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#439

Post by shiburizu » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

floatingatoll wrote: post #373

amaccuish wrote: post #97

What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software. Apple was more within their rights to kick Fortnite until the dust has settled from the iOS store, that was the retaliation, but now a mechanism supposedly for security has been repurposed as punishment. That's a pretty nasty move and I feel the mask has sli…

Epic expressly snuck code through the door to activate a user-visible feature in direct prohibition to App Store rules. Apple could have revoked their developer certificate in response, which would have essentially killed all installations of Fortnite iOS/Mac worldwide within 24 hours. That they are merely revoking their ability to sign new code and giving them 2 weeks to perform an orderly shutdown is far less draco…

This isn't being fought over a data breach or privacy concerns and that's why Epic is smart to fight at this angle.

Apple says "you can't do this", but Epic does the thing and says "I should be allowed to do this. As you can all see, this is what happens when I try to put my foot down on it and here's this target audience of people who are benefited by the thing I'm trying to do". This works for them because they are advocating for a freedom of software choice and to rebel against the massive profit line that has made Apple the target of Spotify's legal hate as well.

The rules they broke prevent Epic from doing a thing that consumers would prefer (lower prices) and has been argued against by other parties (30% cut). It doesn't really matter that they broke the rule if the court of public and legal opinion is that the rule was not good to begin with.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#440

Post by baddox » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

grishka wrote: post #372

Razengan wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Video game consoles are specialized hardware. No. > They do one thing and they do it well. Look up console jailbreaks and home-brew. > The problem is, both developers and users see the app store and its policies as a nuisance. Apple does a lot to protect users from unscrupulous practices. Look up the App Store policies and see for yourself. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24154647 and similar comments: >…

> No. You and I know that they're locked-down computers with hardware DRM and a bit of custom silicon, but most users don't see them like that. To them, it's a device that is only capable of running games. > You have no idea how many user-hostile and abusive things I’ve seen blown completely out of the water with the golden phrase "Apple won’t allow that". I'm an Android developer myself but I've seen iOS apps releas…

> To them, it's a device that is only capable of running games.

And Spotify, YouTube, Netflix, live TV, Plex, home automation, web browsing, Skype, etc. In other words, nearly everything an iPhone can do and probably very near 100% overlap with how iPhones are actually used.