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When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

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Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#431

Post by dathinab »

tadfisher wrote: post #412
snazz wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true; that would be the better solution. Requesting a refund before deleting the app would give the user an error message telling them to delete it.

With the corner case that if the user no longer has access to a device with the app installed, they cannot get a refund.

If you lose the product you bought you can generally not get an refound ;=)

And doesn't apple have some form of remote logout/factory reset feature for lost devices?

EDIT: (Sure requiring remote factory reset for lost devices would not work if it's a iPad which has not internet connection and never gets one again in it's live time, but that would be an acceptable corner case I thing).

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#432

Post by grawprog »

chadlavi wrote: post #102

Payment processors generally don't refund fees on payments when the payments are refunded, this isn't new. It's remarkable mainly because (a) it's 30%, not 3% and (b) the App store doesn't position itself as a payments processor the way Stripe does, so it sounds really weird that they would act like one. If the app store took a 3% chunk and never refunded it regardless of the ongoing status of the transaction, that w…

Payment processors also don't typically sell their own hardware, then lock said hardware down so that the payment processor's store is the only way to purchase things for the hardware. Payment processors typically allow you to buy a variety of goods from a range of storefronts. Comparing the Apple store to something like stripe or PayPal seems pretty apple and orangy to me.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#433

Post by rzwitserloot »

nomel wrote: post #416
mywittyname wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. This. Is. Ridiculous. We all know this is an intentional design decision by Apple and that they would absolutely not have designed the workflow this way if they had to dogfood their own platform.

> We all know this is an intentional design decision by Apple I see this as a good thing, since it probably means that only the user is capable of removing apps, requiring intent, and that Apple can never remove an app from my device.

Leading to a _trivial_ solution.

Want a refund? Awesome. Delete the software from your phone. Then, go to the appstore, find the app again, and click 'request refund'. If apple wants to improve the user experience, they can offer 'request refund' when someone uninstalls a recently bought app.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#434

Post by rzwitserloot »

tadfisher wrote: post #412
snazz wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true; that would be the better solution. Requesting a refund before deleting the app would give the user an error message telling them to delete it.

With the corner case that if the user no longer has access to a device with the app installed, they cannot get a refund.

Of course they can.

If you no longer have access to a device you used to own, you should use findmy to remote wipe it.

If you really didn't want that, then you should at the very least go through the trouble of filing, with apple, that the device is lost or stolen, so that any attempt to return that device to an apple store or reseller to fix it gets it flagged.

It seems bizarre in the extreme that you'd want to somehow protect your privacy by not reporting your stolen stuff as stolen with apple, but that you opt in to a system where installing apps requires going through a single vendor.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#435

Post by crazygringo »

t0ughcritic wrote: post #380
crazygringo wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't take a cut of your advertising revenue, and most apps are ad-supported rather than paid. That's why it's true.

No most apps aren’t ad supported mostly games are. The ad supported apps are not real business but side hustles or one time, one hit apps that die quickly.

Most apps by app title, not by usage.

It's precisely the long tail of side hustles with ads that make up most apps.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#436

Post by [deleted] »

nomel wrote: post #416
mywittyname wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. This. Is. Ridiculous. We all know this is an intentional design decision by Apple and that they would absolutely not have designed the workflow this way if they had to dogfood their own platform.

> We all know this is an intentional design decision by Apple I see this as a good thing, since it probably means that only the user is capable of removing apps, requiring intent, and that Apple can never remove an app from my device.

[deleted]

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#437

Post by gerdesj »

jclardy wrote: post #278
wlesieutre wrote: post #7

Does this mean if there's a developer I don't like, I can buy their stuff and refund it to arbitrarily cost them money at no cost to myself and there's nothing they can do about it? That seems ... not great, especially these days. What happens when mobs of internet morons decide review bombing isn't sufficient and realize Apple will help them cause direct financial harm instead?

I think this is part of what is holding back iPad software. You can't charge $100 for Sketch and lose $30 when someone asks for a refund. Apple designed this around $1-$10 apps where losing $2 at volume is fine. What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. When you get a refund of a paid app it is on the honor system for them to delete it. It is removed from their account, so they can n…

"where losing $2 at volume is fine."

Sorry, when is this fine?

A dev flogs an app at 10 and pays 3 to Apple. Then on a refund they lose 3 and the end user has no incentive to even delete the app. Nope, I won't entertain that nonsense.

The only way that I can see for that model to play out is for the dev to factor in a lossrate x 1.3 uplift for their app. That means owners of shiny iStuff are paying Apple an additional unannounced "tax" based on their app churn. Use and discard more apps, then you pay more for the privilege. A dev would have to become a loss adjuster as well: "Hmm assume a 10% return rate" - so the upcharge on my app will have to be:

* My app should cost 10, assuming a fair market. * I lose 3 on a refund, which happens on 1/10 sales (I was paid 10 on sale, I paid 3 to Apple, I refunded 10 and hence lost 3)

So my price adjustment would be 10 + (0.1 x 3) = 10.30. Yes, it looks like a simple uplift will deal with this. Sales: x, churn rate: c, Apple tax: a. => s' = s + (c.a)

That is anti-competitive behaviour on a gigantic scale. Apple are making the apps that are developed for their platform automatically more expensive by a process that looks suspiciously like stealing.

I call that parasitic.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#438

Post by zamadatix »

cortic wrote: post #383
zamadatix wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://qz.com/1683460/what-happens-to-your-itunes-account-w... https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208856 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250384392

https://qz.com/1683460/what-happens-to-your-itunes-account-w... -fraudulent gift card https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208856 -a problem with the payment method https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250384392 -credit card fraud I asked for you to cite sources on Apple banning people for repeatedly claiming a refund. Not for using a stolen credit or gift card.

The theme is fraud which is what large amounts of refunds are treated as.

Cite me that it's not fraud if that's not good enough for you, I'm not really interested in proving fraud is not just allowed to run rampant in a payment system in the very thread about how doing this exact thing would be abusive and need to be stopped somehow.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#439

Post by balls187 »

seancoleman wrote: post #147
chadlavi wrote: post #102

Payment processors generally don't refund fees on payments when the payments are refunded, this isn't new. It's remarkable mainly because (a) it's 30%, not 3% and (b) the App store doesn't position itself as a payments processor the way Stripe does, so it sounds really weird that they would act like one. If the app store took a 3% chunk and never refunded it regardless of the ongoing status of the transaction, that w…

Stripe does refund their fees with a transaction refund. I understand this may be novel for the payment processing industry though.

That is not accurate. Stripe does not refund us the fees.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#440

Post by [deleted] »

chrisjarvis wrote: post #379

Has anyone confirmed this is true (or is this tweet the only source...)? https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/105454 "Apple has the RIGHT TO withhold" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23989256 It seems you can only get a refund by reporting a problem, which means if your app works as described you shouldn't be able to request a refund.

[deleted]
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