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Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#431

Post by desi_ninja »

screye wrote: post #311

Can we talk about how much more CS people are expected to work than people in other fields ? For most people here, CS is their hobby. So a lot of learning and knowledge acquisition happens during 'leisure' time. This is rarely the case in other professions. If we count all the time we spend resolving environments, getting setups right, learning new tools and reading papers as work (as we rightly should), then most pe…

regarding india, you are confusing over hiring of engineers by consultancies like TCS. they take people from any stream of engineering (even other ones) and then train them. CS people formna fraction of it. and if you compare engineers who have CS degree in India and those who don't and yet work in TCS, you will find a lot of difference in skill. Lastly, money drives quality. from same University in India, you have CS students going to Google and to TCS. good money attracts talent. you have no incentive to improve in low paying job unless you want to switch

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#432

Post by loco5niner »

whichdan wrote: post #177
corpMaverick wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

Please don't assume everyone on HN is male.

Making baseless complaints like this doesn't help your crusade.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#433

Post by racl101 »

restalis wrote: post #397
racl101 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also doesn't help that the perceived uniform of the programmer is a hoodie or an ironic t-shirt and chinos style of pants or similar regalia. Like, that just doesn't look cool. I've been saying this for years. It's no wonder it doesn't look sexy nor command much respect. Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit. Sure, it feels good, but that's the same rationale for wearing crocs. You feel gre…

"Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit." I think you got it wrong. That suit guy has to wear it, because his trade demands it, most likely for that image which has to be conveyed. That programmer can afford to wear that hoodie and still to demand his salary, yet nothing limits him to the hoodie outfit, you see?

Fair enough, but the topic at hand are the potential reasons why programming, as a whole, not only doesn't command must prestige/ respect, but in some sense kinda seems like a joke to outsiders.

And my contention was that programmers choosing to dress in hoodies and casual pants doesn't seem to help, whether they have a choice to wear it or not nor whether it has any bearing on their salary.

To put it in other words, person might see a programmer guy in a hoodie on his way to the office, and that guy might very well command a six figure salary, but that's not the observer's perception or first thought.

I'm not arguing about which is right or just, I'm just arguing about the reasons of why things are the way they are.

And maybe, you might think: who cares? Let them think that. Which, again, fair enough. But in the overall grand picture, if a lot of people have similar perceptions, it might not bode well for our profession overall. I mean, it's not just about attracting the opposite sex, it's also, as some already stated, inspiring more people to do take up computer science.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#434

Post by aaalll »

peruvian wrote: post #134
christiansakai wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand where did this perspective come from? Is it from movies? I've been in this field for 6 years now, and I never encountered the stereotypical nerd in this field whatsoever. Not during my CS course not during my career.

It's a half-true stereotype. I work with people who basically do almost nothing but code or talk about code... and they're in their late 20s and 30s. I've been on dates with software engineers who bring tech stuff to the conversation a little too often for my tastes as well. Young teens are more obsessive about hobbies so if you're really into computers at that age, that's all you do. In the real world though, for ev…

I used to be like this then my interest broaden a lot when I was about 22. I basically have friends now that I only talk via chat or when I want to talk tech since my old crowd would just chat about it perpetually.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#435

Post by Izkata »

thu2111 wrote: post #342
thelopa wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rowling is well known but is currently having her reputation blown up and being stabbed in the back by the starlets she birthed, because she's not on board with "people can pick their own gender at will". Wow. So much to unpack here. I’m getting the impression that you sympathize with Rowling’s views. I’m a little more immersed in trans issues than most on HN, so let me assure you that Rowling is flat out wrong. Fo…

I don't take a position on Rowling's views one way or another, as I haven't really investigated them. I believe the quote is a reasonably accurate summary of her position but it's based on second hand accounts I've read in the press; can well believe it's somewhat garbled. My understanding is the argument is about whether people can pick a new gender without any biological changes/surgery, but who knows, maybe she's…

> My understanding is the argument is about whether people can pick a new gender without any biological changes/surgery, but who knows, maybe she's against hormone therapies too.

There's at least three different arguments happening at the same time, all using the word "trans", making it really hard to pick apart which one any given person is using and making it really really easy for their opponents to paint them in a terrible light.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#436

Post by chrisseaton »

yowlingcat wrote: post #428
chrisseaton wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example... I have a friend who is a barrister in London. He makes a lot less money than I do, and works a lot longer hours, so sounds like he has the lower status job, right? No, because he's getting invited to join elite private social clubs and organisations. He's going to dinner parties with politicians and could use that network to start a political career if he wanted. He's meeting people with capital to inv…

> There's a whole real-life social network out there, and they definitely aren't inviting the programmers. I'm not sure if someone in your position is in the right position to be making this conclusion, if only because your lack of experience of social status (or those of people who you know who share your vocation) doesn't prove the vocation has any causality on social status. If there is a real-life "social network…

> I'm not sure if someone in your position is in the right position to be making this conclusion

I disagree I think I have a unique ability to make it. I have two simultaneous careers - I'm a programmer and an Army officer. I can see what parties, clubs, dinners, social events, social connections the two versions of myself are invited to, and how both are treated socially.

I can directly compare the two experiences with all other variables controlled - background, education, accent, cultural awareness, where I live - just by changing the hat I'm wearing.

How can you make a better experiment than that?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#437

Post by yowlingcat »

chrisseaton wrote: post #436
yowlingcat wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a whole real-life social network out there, and they definitely aren't inviting the programmers. I'm not sure if someone in your position is in the right position to be making this conclusion, if only because your lack of experience of social status (or those of people who you know who share your vocation) doesn't prove the vocation has any causality on social status. If there is a real-life "social network…

> I'm not sure if someone in your position is in the right position to be making this conclusion I disagree I think I have a unique ability to make it. I have two simultaneous careers - I'm a programmer and an Army officer. I can see what parties, clubs, dinners, social events, social connections the two versions of myself are invited to, and how both are treated socially. I can directly compare the two experiences w…

> How can you make a better experiment than that?

You would need to make real, deep friendships with high status individuals over a long period of time and observe how they behave, what motivates them, what they have access to and what constrains them. And you'd need to do it while you're both still young and formative life experiences are still being made. It might be too late for you to do this because the best time to do this is as early in life as possible, through formative social experiences: high school, then college (not as ideal), then early career (under 25 -- even less ideal). At each of these points, people and their social groups are progressively more crystallized, and your likelihood of making friends with someone outside of your class decreases precipitously.

Your "experiment" (I would hesitate to call it that) is really just two separate experiences held by one person. In all likelihood, the things that are held invariant there (you, the person) including strengths, weaknesses, formative social bonds, socioeconomic class that you were born into -- all those have much more of an effect on your outcomes than anything else, and even if you do see slightly higher social status as an army officer, it's not truly high status, the way examples I gave (billionaires, investors, children of nobility, famous artists and musicians) indicate. They live differently. They inherited their already high status, and continue moving savvily to increase it further. They are the results of many generations of this. If you're not friends with them, you won't get invited to their parties and you won't see their world. You won't understand. Their world is /completely/ different than yours. Theirs is ruled by tradition. They have obscene amounts of resources. They can do whatever they want. They maintain their position. You cannot experiment in any way possible that would imply anything about the way they live their lives; to think otherwise would be very naive and simply at odds at reality.

If it seems like that's unfair and that makes it tough or impossible for you to experimentally verify: I'd say I agree with you, but that it was designed that way on purpose over thousands of years.

And don't take my word for it. Make friends with these people, if you can. See how they see their world and move inside of it. Your priors might change. I know mine did.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#438

Post by [deleted] »

yowlingcat wrote: post #437
chrisseaton wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure if someone in your position is in the right position to be making this conclusion I disagree I think I have a unique ability to make it. I have two simultaneous careers - I'm a programmer and an Army officer. I can see what parties, clubs, dinners, social events, social connections the two versions of myself are invited to, and how both are treated socially. I can directly compare the two experiences w…

> How can you make a better experiment than that? You would need to make real, deep friendships with high status individuals over a long period of time and observe how they behave, what motivates them, what they have access to and what constrains them. And you'd need to do it while you're both still young and formative life experiences are still being made. It might be too late for you to do this because the best tim…

[deleted]

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#439

Post by chrisseaton »

yowlingcat wrote: post #437
chrisseaton wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure if someone in your position is in the right position to be making this conclusion I disagree I think I have a unique ability to make it. I have two simultaneous careers - I'm a programmer and an Army officer. I can see what parties, clubs, dinners, social events, social connections the two versions of myself are invited to, and how both are treated socially. I can directly compare the two experiences w…

> How can you make a better experiment than that? You would need to make real, deep friendships with high status individuals over a long period of time and observe how they behave, what motivates them, what they have access to and what constrains them. And you'd need to do it while you're both still young and formative life experiences are still being made. It might be too late for you to do this because the best tim…

> You would need to make real, deep friendships with high status individuals over a long period of time

This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they?

If the exact same person is treated in two different ways, and absolutely nothing changes except their profession, then the profession is the only possible cause of the difference.

You try it! Go into an environment presenting with one profession, then another, and see the difference! Book into a hotel describing yourself as 'doctor' and you'll get treated differently than when you book in as 'mister'. You can try it yourself and it's plainly obvious that society sees a difference.

> it's not truly high status

I think you're possibly lost track of where this started - I said A was lower than the B. You're trying to argue with me that B isn't the highest, but I never said that - you're arguing against something nobody said in the first place.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#440

Post by yowlingcat »

chrisseaton wrote: post #439
yowlingcat wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you make a better experiment than that? You would need to make real, deep friendships with high status individuals over a long period of time and observe how they behave, what motivates them, what they have access to and what constrains them. And you'd need to do it while you're both still young and formative life experiences are still being made. It might be too late for you to do this because the best tim…

> You would need to make real, deep friendships with high status individuals over a long period of time This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they? If the exact same person is treated in two different ways, and absolutely nothing changes except their profession, th…

> This is backwards - in order to see how people treat people based on their profession, you can't make friends with them... because then they aren't judging you on your profession any more, are they? > I think you're possibly lost track of where this started - I said A was lower than the B

I think you're unintentionally making my point for me. You may be missing the limitations of your singular example, and the archetype to which it belongs.

The reason you think that your vocation has anything to do with it is because you lack charisma to such a degree that the miniscule surface level that vocation affects how you are perceived has a significant effect on how how you perceive others to perceive you. You don't seem to understand that there are people out there who are extremely well off and very charming and who can make friends with anyone within half an hour such that whatever their profession is simply does not matter. Vocation is optional for them. The world is a playground for their charisma. Would they play alone? Of course not. The world is a playground for many with charisma, resources or not.

For you, the much more likely scenario is that your example is a common scenario for those that lack charisma, often those whose identity can be reduced to their vocation. But this is obviously not universal. For you to say A is lower than B when for all intents and purposes both your A(x) and B(x) are lower than either my A(y) and B(y) doesn't mean that A B -- it could easily mean that x Is charisma highly variable within members of a vocation and within the general population? I would say yes, and trivially so.

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