Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses • Hacker News Board

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#431

Post by MisterBastahrd » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

RickJWagner wrote: post #311

threeseed wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about one of the most similar countries to the US ? Australian deaths per million = 3.92 US deaths per million = 228.5 And the US number is likely to go to 500 in the next two months whilst in some Australia states it looks like COVID-19 is fully eradicated.

Per today's RealClearPolitics chart: US 260 deaths per million UK 499 France 404 Netherlands 322 Germany (Kudos!) 94.8 The US is not doing badly at all.

Yes, yes it is.

Because a large number of those cases are NYC, which is already on the downside of its curve by a considerable degree, while the US as a whole is still trending upward, meaning that the country outside of NYC is doing pretty poorly.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#432

Post by mehrdadn » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #428

mehrdadn wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wanted to reply to your response - the 1200 USD suppliment payment per person MIGHT pay for one months' costs. The US is oging on the third month of shutdown. The only way for many to survive IS to go back to work. I'm confused. I was saying people could demand more money instead of going back to work... precisely because the $1200 they got clearly wasn't enough (like you also said) and because clearly going back t…

If the country has shelter in place orders, transportation has ground to a halt, and everyone is economically challenged, how would they assemble in DC to protest at the Capital Building? This is where you would have to protest for additional economic relief from the federal government. I would not be opposed to constituents showing up at the personal homes of Congressional representatives to protest, but that requir…

You don't need to show up in front of the US Congress to protest. Thankfully if there's one thing the US knows how to do, it's for people to protest wherever they find standing room, and still get their attention. I'm not sure about you but I vividly recall this happening during Occupy Wall Street. People protested (even overnight) in all sorts of settings around the country that had no obvious relevance to Washington (or NYC).

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#433

Post by JPKab » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:07 PM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #381

JPKab wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because the protesters don't want handouts from agencies which have done a very poor job dispersing said handouts already. I can go to a superstore which is deemed essential because it sells groceries and buy all sorts of items that specialty stores aren't able to sell me because they're closed. any member of the public can enter these superstores with no screening whatsoever. The small business owners would sc…

I can't tell if you're ranting or just upset at all this or at the fact that HNers commenting are on topics that you feel they're disconnected from (though I'm sorry about your family's situation), but your reply is quite incoherent. I can't reply to every point, but I can't even make sense of the fact that you're calling me out for being so certain that reopening proposal comes with a lot of... un certainty in givin…

Sorry if I came off as incoherent. I'm definitely tired of seeing keyboard warriors comment on things that they are obviously not connected to.

"At a high level though: surely you understand not everything is equally uncertain here, and that not everything is being flown blindly? We have like 200 other countries in the world to observe and draw conclusions from, both socioeconomically and medically. "

Yes, you are 100% correct, and I appreciate you taking a charitable view of my comment.

The issue I see here is that the 200 countries we can observe provide a massive stream of data that then gets applied through a tribal filter.

Those who advocate for continued, strict shutdowns look at Sweden and compare it to Finland/Norway negatively. Those who advocate for moderated, easing shutdowns for economy look at Sweden and compare it to other countries with internationally connected economies in Europe in a positive framing.

I see this constantly playing out, with endless justifications/explanations for why "I'm still right."

"They had more testing, and they are better people and can be trusted to wear masks, so no, we're not like South Korea"

"The Swedes are culturally less individualist, and can be trusted more"

"Georgia and Texas are going to be disasters. It hasn't been a full 2 weeks, but just wait, the incubation period..."

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#434

Post by pjc50 » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:09 PM UTC

bhb916 wrote: post #429

pjc50 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I keep saying, comparing to "Europe" is almost meaningless because of the diversity of governments and cultures. It may also be unreasonable to talk of the US as a whole in this case. Infections are inherently locally clustered. There seem to be all sorts of factors affecting spread, and there's no clear picture of what they are. Eastern Europe isn't very heavily affected and nobody seems to know why. Belgium is a…

Genuine question: how will these countries keep deaths below 10 a week while being completely out of lockdown? Doesn't that rely on a treatment or vaccine?

New Zealand is at 21 total. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/new-zealand-coronavirus-elim...

1) Stop infected people from entering the country. If you have enough testing capacity, you can allow in those who are clear. Otherwise they have to be quarantined.

2) Track every infection within the country.

3) Test all their contacts.

Of course, those are very hard to do in an airtight fashion. But the smaller the absolute numbers the easier they are to do. Countries not working towards building this capability are just going to keep struggling.

Even NZ has not fully lifted the restrictions yet. They've not even sent kids back to school. https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-new-zealand-eases-loc...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#435

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #234

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> This state supreme court could have delayed. This isn’t the rule of law. It’s a cop out. The problem is leaders had insufficient authorised powers. The solution to that isn’t to ignore the law. It’s to change it. Have the debate about who can activate quarantine under what grounds and in which circumstances, pass the bill and enumerate those powers. Playing devil’s advocate, the precedent of a single leader having…

[deleted]

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#436

Post by asabjorn » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

ikiris wrote: post #205

jb775 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The glaring omission here is that this 80 year old with coronavirus could have had stage IV cancer, and pneumonia, and the Bubonic plague, but the official cause of death is being considered "Covid". And considering the 80 year old is probably broke at this point of their medical journey, the hospitals have the option to either get paid nothing, or can claim yet another Covid death so they get the $13k-$39k per-patie…

You seem to not know how covid works (or medicine and/or medical examination) and that's fine, but please don't use your ignorance to sway others on subjects you have no knowledge in.

Dr Birx on the coronavirus task force says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause. See video-proof in [1]. This is due to the highly unusual CDC guidelines on how to classify coronavirus deaths.

This is what parent refers to, and is not a knowledge-free comment.

[1] https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#437

Post by pjc50 » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:12 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #337

akhilcacharya wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demand isn’t going to go up magically because of reopening. I’m not seeing much evidence for pent up demand outside of hair cuts, which are not exactly essential

I'm not sure about that. I'm ready to go to the gym, go out to restaurants, and just yesterday they took the caution tape off of the school playground and lots of kids were there. I don't think demand will immediately return to 100%, but I think quite a few people are itching to get out and spend money and enjoy life. Maybe not in some areas, but most of the country is probably ready to go.

People are surprisingly ready for a serious respiratory disease.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#438

Post by leetcrew » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

astrea wrote: post #404

microcolonel wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also just anecdotally, here in Ontario people seem to want to avoid catching and spreading the disease, more than to avoid clashing with the law (who can't really tell if you have a legitimate reason to be somewhere anyway); and the people who don't care about one don't care about the other either. For the handful of people I see clearly flaunting the restrictions here, I feel like more often than not they have decen…

> A free person does not take orders from the state, nor from anyone. A free person has a right to weigh advice and conscience on his own terms, and negotiate his externalities with society. How do you balance that with another person's right to live? If you as a free person decide "F it, I don't want to stay cooped up despite my positive diagnosis." Is that fair to someone you then infect out in public?

no, it's not fair, but that's the inherent risk of freedom. people might not do what's best for you, or even themselves. under this model, the government actually has to cultivate a position of trust/legitimacy rather than just compelling people to do (or not do) things.

it's easy to forget that most people act with consideration and respect towards each other most of the time, whether or not there is a credible threat of punishment. we tend to notice bad behavior more in our day-to-day lives precisely because it is not the default. you never notice all the dog walkers that dutifully clean up after their pets, but you'll surely remember that one piece of dog shit you stepped in on the way to work. the news almost exclusively covers outliers.

in my state, we have mandatory shelter-in-place under threat of fines/imprisonment, but the police don't really have any way of knowing whether you are violating the order. people mostly follow it anyway, because they are convinced of the severity of the issue.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#439

Post by jeffdavis » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

It could be a mix of culture, trust in government, and trust in the media. I wouldn't put it all in the "culture" bucket, because it lets government officials and media outlets completely off the hook.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#440

Post by anoraca » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

dilandau wrote: post #390

mchusma wrote: post #95

“If a forest fire breaks out, there is no time for debate. Action is needed. The governor could declare an emergency and respond accordingly. But in the case of a pandemic, which lasts month after month, the governor cannot rely on emergency powers indefinitely,” Roggensack wrote for the majority. Refreshing to see some pressure for democracy to resume.

I'm hopeful that more states will follow this lead. At the outset the shutdowns have undoubtedly helped prevent a massive tide of sickness that would have overwhelmed the healthcare system. Let's not forget that this was always the point of the shutdowns. It was never about preventing people from getting sick at some point -- it was about limiting a crush of sick people all at once. As Powell said yesterday, 40% of h…

Wouldn't they be bringing in more income from the $600/week in Federal unemployment + state unemployment than they would at their job?