MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#431

Post by LatteLazy » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 11:41 AM UTC

When I was at university, the head of admissions position at the school of physics was forced on someone who didn't want it. So he used it as an opportunity for an experiment.

He offered a place to everyone who applied. People with low grades, people without the maths prerequisite, anyone really.

Our intake swelled from about 60 students to almost 100. The ones without maths really struggled. Many dropped out.

But to him that was the whole point: if you're smart/hungry/hardworking enough to pass you'd pass. If you weren't, you'd drop out or fail. Either way, why should he try to "pick winners"? This way winners without math prereq (or whatever) still hey a chance.

That changed the way I thought about admissions as 2 of the extra 30 got a degree they never gave had a chance at otherwise.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#432

Post by 3131s » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 12:23 PM UTC

applecrazy wrote: post #76

hackinthebochs wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an underrepresented minority and I increased my SAT score by 200-300 from the PSAT to SAT, depending on how you want to measure the change. This was just by doing self-study with off the shelf test prep material. The classes aren't what increases your score, its the consistent structured study and ones innate potential. For some people, no amount of study is going to get them into the 90+th percentile. While othe…

This. I’m a college freshman and took the SAT and PSAT when in high school. I’m also not a minority. While I and my parents could have afforded the expensive prep courses the students around me were taking , I decided to skip these and focus purely on solo prep. Across the PSAT and SAT, I spent a total of $50 for my prep–a $35 dollar, thick book of SAT problems, and a $15 PSAT prep book. Technically, you don’t even n…

No one even told us at my school that the PSAT would count for national merit scholarships, which ended up saving me $20,000 on university tuition over four years.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#433

Post by tssva » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 1:01 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #322

tssva wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly do standardized tests identify those who will or won't prey on other people?

They don't identify that directly. But they do identify the potential to do something productive. Obviously that can't be the only thing being used to judge people; but some objective standard like that has to be part of what is being used. Also, regardless of what standardized tests do or don't do, judging based on "articulate, socially well-adjusted person who can communicate their values and opinions in an intelli…

"They don't identify that directly. But they do identify the potential to do something productive." It think your definition of what is productive might be very different than mine.

"since anyone who preys on other people has to have those skills" If you look at history you will find many without those skills that preyed on others.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#434

Post by mygo » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

TomVDB wrote: post #416

mygo wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was a poor kid who got into UC Berkeley based largely on my SAT II scores. So did the admissions officer mail you a letter that said “congrats! Based largely on your SAT II scores, you’ve gotten in!” If not, what enables you to discount the possibility that you still would have gotten in without the subject test?

They do this through elimination if the application lacked the usual extracurricular items on an application due to being poor...

From this point going forward it is no longer a usual extracurricular item. The school that they are applying to has specifically told all applicants that they don’t want to hear about their subject test score. It would be unusual to include it, not to mention blatantly violating application submission instructions, which applicants are expected to carefully follow.

In any case, his name is “cognitive elite.” If he is who he says he is, then he would have find other ways to prove his eliteness/worthiness if subject tests were not being considered for any applicant. He had the initiative to study for that test. If he knew that it would have been a waste of time to study for it, then maybe he would have taken that same time and initiative to do something else to make his application stand out.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#435

Post by banachtarski » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #399

banachtarski wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdote: When I was younger, I used to take a public bus to a local bookstore and work through the SAT practice books (on separate scrap paper of course).

It sounds like you didn't have to pick up younger siblings at school when you were younger. That's the reality for a lot of poor kids. Raised by a single parent, the older siblings are in charge of looking after the younger ones. The parent often does not get home from work until late (and may have multiple jobs).

I did actually. I was the oldest of three.

I'm not saying the poor aren't disadvantaged. It's just that the disadvantages are more along the lines of attitudes towards education in the first place (along with everything else). There are also fewer people nearby that serve as an "example" on how to learn or get ahead.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#436

Post by donteatglitter » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

mygo wrote: post #434

TomVDB wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do this through elimination if the application lacked the usual extracurricular items on an application due to being poor...

From this point going forward it is no longer a usual extracurricular item. The school that they are applying to has specifically told all applicants that they don’t want to hear about their subject test score. It would be unusual to include it, not to mention blatantly violating application submission instructions, which applicants are expected to carefully follow. In any case, his name is “cognitive elite.” If he i…

Let’s go back to the point where he said poor kid. It’s really hard to get those opportunities. Many poor kids have to work through high school or provide unpaid child care for their family, many of those also have to deal with food and/or housing insecurity. It’s extremely difficult to not only have the connections to get in someplace for an internship or a volunteer experience for your scholastic resume but also to be able to get there or have the time outside of work/school/family to do it.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#437

Post by solinent » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

jdmichal wrote: post #263

solinent wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is a social creature, you can't have language without society and social interactions, if you're not able to communicate with spoken word you simply can't work as effectively with others. Especially if you can't make connections with others. In fact, most of history the etymology of words wasn't a huge topic because everyone would pronounce the words in their language similarly and thus language wouldn't evo…

> In fact, most of history the etymology of words wasn't a huge topic because everyone would pronounce the words in their language similarly and thus language wouldn't evolve nearly as rapidly--the phoneme is as important as the lexeme when it comes to language. Uh, what? How do you think we got more than one language in the first place? How do you think we have entire language families with mutually-unintelligable m…

This is straight from Saussure, and then Chomsky. You can read his first course in linguistics [1].

It was highly disputed in the 1800s.

I'm not an expert, but:

> Uh, what? How do you think we got more than one language in the first place?

We would compete for resources, new languages would be created rapidly from old languages instead of the gradual change we're seeing in the last 4000 years.

> How do you think we have entire language families with mutually-unintelligable members?

All language, like I said, is composed of many -emes. Chomsky's big discovery was that you can't seaparate syntax and semantics when it comes to any language.

> Or what about dialectal continuums? If anything, I would posit that we are closer to your statement now than at any other time, because the printing press calcified spelling -- which could vary quite a bit in the time of scribes. And radio and TV and the Internet have started spreading linguistic innovation faster.

This is the standard intuitive view with when one has no evidence. There is strong evidence to suggest that it is the individuals who mispronounce written words who cause this rapid change in language--they are mispronounced and then subsequently miswritten, and then their semantics are subsequently misinterpreted, so their syntax and semantics slowly change in this fashion.

Saussure, the founder of the modern linguistic tradition, has this all outlined in his book [1]. He outlines your view, and then shows you that it is in fact not true.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_in_General_Linguistics

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#438

Post by MiroF » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:02 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #398

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

legacy preference just gives you a +1, not guaranteed.

I applied to 10 ivy league universities, and was accepted by 3. It's reasonable to suppose that if MIT gave a +1 for legacy admits, I would have gotten the nod.

that is not a reasonable assumption at all - it's a dice roll regardless. admission at one good school doesn't guarantee admission at another, even if you have legacy.

(and is also highly dependent on which Ivies we're talking about - not all Ivies are HYP, which are more on par with MIT)

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#439

Post by perl4ever » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:55 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #374

perl4ever wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people consider a person with a Master's degree to be a dropout. (yes, I know, not necessarily...)

Those people are called academics. The kinds of Master’s degrees that are rent seeking credentialism, MBAs, MSWs, M.Ed.s are far more common than consolation prizes for those who didn’t get their Ph.D.

Perhaps, but the context I heard it in was self-deprecating from someone working in industry, relative to engineers with PhDs.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#440

Post by birdboy2000 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #221

knzhou wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an articulate, socially well-adjusted person who can communicate their values and opinions in an intelligent way Yes, that's me. > and who is comfortable making connections with others And that will never be me. Leadership is inherently nepotistic. You simply aren't permitted to lead if you have the wrong class background or the wrong ethnicity. (There's a reason all Senators look exactly the same.) You're literall…

> You simply aren't permitted to lead if you have the wrong class background or the wrong ethnicity. (There's a reason all Senators look exactly the same.) In what sense did, I dunno, Obama and McConnell look exactly the same?

There are almost 40 million black Americans and the only one to make president went to top private schools and was raised by his WASP mom