Earlier quoted context omitted.
I fully understand rationing, rationing is something done by Authoritarian governments, including the US and the UK... So it seems you are infact proposing authoritarianism as a solution to the problem Give up freedom for safety... wonderful. I see alot of that right now it is very sad
Just to make sure I understand your ideology: so you're saying the rationing that happened during World War II was a mistake?
$5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
431–440 of 450 posts
Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#432Earlier quoted context omitted.
You'll find a similar argument in any basic econ textbook. Put a cap on prices, then when demand rises for something (which normally leads to an increase in price, all other things being equal), the lack of an accompanying rise in price means there is no incentive to produce more of the good (no incentive for more producers to enter the market), so there isn't a corresponding increase in supply. Might work okay in Ch…
And like most things, basic econ is not the be all and end all of how the world works otherwise we wouldn't have those all-important second year econ classes. Price gouging is not an efficient market result for anyone - the goods aren't actually, in real terms, worth the temporary price (the costs of manufacturer's switching over production is going to wind up much higher then any profit they can make once they're to…
Yes, you're basically right despite intending to be sarcastic. The circuit breakers are stupid and there's no real good reason for them to exist. Levine:
> The basic idea of stock-market circuit breakers is, like, some news happens, and the market reacts precipitously, and stocks fall 7%, and the market gets turned off for 15 minutes so that everyone can have some time to think and digest the news and see if they want to buy. On an average Tuesday afternoon, not everyone who might want to buy stocks is watching the market every minute. The computers are, sure, but some long-term investors are busy doing other things, reading 10-Ks or meeting with executives or whatever. Someone needs to call them up and say “hey not sure if you noticed but stocks are cheap now, you should buy some.”
> But you generally want to do this sort of thing through mechanical bright-line rules, and occasionally those rules get applied in kind of weird circumstances. The market did not fall 7% by 9:34 a.m. today because of shocking news that came out at 9:32! Investors had all weekend to ponder coronavirus news, and all of Sunday to ponder oil-price news, and they pondered it at their leisure, and futures traded limit-down, and then the stock market opened and investors applied their weekend’s worth of pondering to the market, with the result that the market shut down four minutes later. A weekend of pondering, four minutes of trading, 15 more minutes of pondering. I am not sure what you learned in the 15 minutes that you didn’t learn over the weekend.
Back to you:
> Nor is anyone questioning why it was suddenly urgent that the government put $USD1.5 trillion of liquidity into the market.
The government didn't do that. It loaned $1.5T over a very short term to banks. It was not targeted at the stock market and had no impact there.
Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#433Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#434Prices being elastic is good for people, in a vast majority of cases. It makes sure things get distributed more or less proportional to need, as opposed to just random or worse than random. Case in point: I luckily found some hand gel still for sale online. Probably the very last one around here. So I stocked up - not resale quantities (thought it would have been trivial) but definitely more than I needed - something…
You're justifying your own unethical behavior by painting yourself as a rational economic agent, when you could also just not buy more than necessary and leave some for other people.
Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#435Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely, I cannot fathom how people are so anti-government that they cannot see the forest from the tree. These types of situations are textbook explanations for WAR PROFITEERING (except we are in a crisis instead of war).
Yeah, the government is great at stopping price gouging. You know - like in Medicare or DOD contracts.
Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#436Earlier quoted context omitted.
But if the price floated the empty shelf situation would have been mitigated.
But also a lot of people wouldn't be able to access supplies. In both cases a lot of people get screwed. In the "floating price" case it just isn't highly paid software engineers on HN.
Why do you prefer that? Why do you think that individuals have no ability to adjust their personal spending such that they can purchase TP or hand sanitizer even at 2x, 3x or even 5x price points.
Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#437A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…
"There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product." People hoarding aren't trying to create artificial scarcity. They are buying because they anticipate scarcity, and want to either (i) be prepared, or (ii) profit from resale. Hoarding has caused shortages which, in turn, justify the original hoarding. This…
This is false. We are seeing artificial shortages due to hoarding that has already occurred. Higher prices would encourage hoarders to profit from their hoarding. I think it’s fair for people to stock up on a few weeks to a month’s worth of food and toiletries to avoid unnecessary trips to the store until they need to stock back up again, but if a hoarder bought way more than they’ll ever need and they can’t profit by selling their wares at higher prices, then they might as well just give them to those in need, or be left with a lifetime supply of toilet paper occupying their guest room.
The stores will restock. This is not a shortage due to production deficits. This is just people taking everything off the shelves as soon as they are restocked. These stores are just going to keep restocking and the panic buying will subside.
Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#438But, here in CA, on the other hand, when a House (something far more crucial to people's lives), costs 800,000$ instead of 200,000$, that's okay (at least with the vast majority of voters).
I should mention the reason for 1 and the other are completely different. The soap, is merely due to the seller, wehreas the housing shortage is a political choice voters agreed to.
Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#439Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not everyone is scalping, but everyone is buying more for themselves because they're suddenly worried about future supply. There would still be a temporary shortage without the scalpers, maybe slightly less severe.
How much TP do people really need for themselves? Why are the shelves cleared out of TP and not, I don't know, dish detergent? Why is its future supply more in danger than any other good? If everyone coordinated buying a month's supply of TP one weekend, would all the stores really run out? I'm not so sure... At Costco it's hard to buy less than one month's supply at a time already, unless you have a big family
If a million people normally buy one pack per month spread out evenly on weekends, but all of them think hey, maybe it's a good idea to get two packs this weekend, that's 2M packs where they had stocked for typical sales of 1M / (52 / 12) = 230K.
Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA
#440Earlier quoted context omitted.
Arbitrage does nothing to solve any issues in a situation of universal demand. What these people do is not satisfying overall demand. It's taking from one place, and reallocating to another output earmarked for distribution to a particular geographic area. They create problems ascertaining realistic supply and demand. If you cannot understand why this type of middleman profit-taking centric arbitrage by which no prod…
> You want to engage in arbitrage and play "the Free Market cures all ills"? You do that with your own community Free market is already solving this problem. I was at my local store today and they were restocking the shelves with TP and paper towels. There was no line. You seem to have completely missed my point that the price surge should have been happening in the regular stores. By not raising their prices, the st…
Prices going up does not achieve the goal of enabling universal access to current supply in order to damp the strain on the currently existing medical/distribution infrastructure, which is the primary goal to be achieved in a global pandemic situation. By looking at the problem through a primarily economic lens, the resulting world does not accurately reflect those meddlesome details that economists handwave. Like the fact that there are portions of the population that won't be able to make the tradeoff of paying higher prices for these goods, and still get other necessities. That trade-off, more shock to the medical infrastructure before we have effective mitigation/treatment is not the kind of thing we can just handwave through more money.
Furthermore, it isn't price hiking that is so much an issue as unconscionable price-hiking facilitated by sub-optimal logistics, or outright greed. The end problem is getting supplier output to an area where people in need can get it. Any unnecessary obstacles in that chain for the express purpose of profit-taking are the problem.
>You and many like you seem to think that being in favor is the same thing as being in favor of the hoarding and speculation. But that is not true.
Saying that is is easy, but it doesn't make it true. People interpret the baseline increase of price as being an externally imposed privation. This degenerates to a man v. society response encouraging an every-man-for-themselves attitude which doesn't result in an optimal outcome, and instead encourages the type of half-thought out environment where you'll find desperate secondary market buyers, and secondary market suppliers creating a self-reinforcing disruption created by seeking sources of dwindling supply to reroute everywhere else willy-nilly. The system thrashes, in short. A non-price surge mediated response however aims at enabling access to the resource across the board, and degenerates down to a logistics problem of getting product from here to there and matching replacement rates with consumption rates in lock-step. This approach doesn't inspire fear, but instead relies on wide-scale disciplined thinking, along with the ability to know with reasonable certainty that product earmarked for a particular geographical area is still there.
>I also am not arguing against sellers choosing to limit quantities, that is their prerogative.
We are agreed somewhere!
>I'm arguing against government intervention when the market will address this all on its own. The Mayor of New York City seems to be in your club. He is arguing for the nationalization of industries to solve the shortages.
To be clear, the only "government intervention" I'm advocating for is for the prosecution of those that participate in widespread buying out of supply for arbitrage purposes in order to ensure the primary market with visibility is the primary means of distribution, and to minimize the level of chaos. I in no way endorse transition of manufacturer or distributor, or logistical mover to government control. Hence my advocation of The enactment of voluntary purchase limits by the end distributor. I'm not that hot on nationalization, nor do I believe we're at the point where things are severe enough for the overhead of having to legislate out the details involved in fully specifying the response. I'm just trying to make it clear that right now everyone is in the same boat, and the best way forward is to not let ourselves fall to the temptation to turn a universal crisis into a mint. The entire system can handle it as long as we give it the room to work while at the same time constraining it to work for the end goal of not enriching a few outrageously, but getting things where they need to be.
We may be somewhat talking passed each other for some reason. The only major difference I'm seeing in our approaches after a few re-reads and attempts at trying to coax out an alternate message from what you wrote is I'm coming at it from the grounds of a logistics problem, and you from the economic market side, where mine makes the implicit assumption the work must be done, and yours doesn't seem to account for that axiom in any way, or at least in a way explicit enough for my sensibilities.
>Which is it? Information does or doesn't propagate quickly?
It's both. Social signals such as shame or disapproval travel quickly and can facilitate rapid modification of individual behavior based on consistent responses to undesired behavior. Logistical signalling is not that. It requires existing relationships, confirmation that funding is staged properly, several stages of analysis and propagation through particular human actors who are still burdened with everything else that isn't the crisis as well. These are longer cycle signals that are more rigid, but most importantly, have exhaustive levels of in place infrastructure to increase the visibility of the overall signal; something lacking in secondary markets.
Again, to summarize:
>Not advocating nationalization.
>Am advocating intervention where purchasing for arbitrage purpose disrupts the smooth logistical flow of output (I.e. buying out the next town's supply to sell at a markup online)
>Universal access is the priority until the severity of the crisis is dampened sufficiently by developing herd immunity/vaccines/treatment
>Do not be a dick. If someone else you know is being a duck, make sure they know it; because now isn't the time for it.
>Stable logistical picture facilitates smooth Market based optimization without excessive distortions created by ghost supply flow.
>Don't Panic.
That's it.