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The world needs more search engines

0x65.dev

431–440 of 549 posts

Re: The world needs more search engines

#431

It's hard to take their "privacy by design" seriously. It is the same Cliqz that partnered before with Mozilla to run "experiment" exfiltrating browsing history (!) of 1% of new installs in Germany: https://blog.mozilla.org/press-uk/2017/10/06/testing-cliqz-i... I thought Mozilla would loss all their credibility after this, but somehow they still market as privacy-focused..

Hi, Marc from Cliqz. This one haunts us (in HN and also in my dreams). Let's first get one thing clear: It was a terrible blog post. Second: The 1% who had Cliqz installed were actually safer than the ones without. Why? If you use a (most) browsers every keystroke in the URL bar gets send to Google. This is how autosuggest works. This was and is the case with Firefox also. Cliqz in the functionally implemented in Firefox was not that different. Except - it comes with privacy by design: We actually proxied those requests to not get the IP, we take special measures to not collect private data in the first place. And all this was tested and scrutinized a lot before and after the test. And if you don't trust it or believe it, it also happened to be open source. In the end, you were better off with Cliqz than without. Third (and maybe most importantly): If you don't support anyone who "collects" data, even if they do it in the most transparent way, without collecting any private information, in fact going a long way to delete all PII, open-source and with privacy by design, someone who has no business model built on collecting profiles, then you only criticize Google, but will never have an alternative or only alternatives that white label those that do collect all data. Because building a search without data is impossible. We were hoping that together with Firefox we would build a better solution. For some reasons this didn't work out, but lack of privacy was never one of them (lack of a business model more so, because sending every key press to some is more profitable than others, regardless of how private each is). In fact, our way of doing things is much more private than most people out there who claim to be private. This includes most browsers and search engines. And all of this is open source, so verifiable. And while we speak about it: In our blog https://0x65.dev we will over the next 24 days publish pieces on what we do and why we do it and why it is important, data collection and anonymization will be a big part of this. Last not least: All this is clearly not your fault, so my rant might be inappropriate, but as I said, this thing haunts us for the wrong reasons. (Me and the team are happy to answer any questions).

Re: The world needs more search engines

#432

There needs to be a new search engine focused on the niche of people who hate the current ad spam/SEO results that Google currently returns. A query like "best headphones" returns results like "The Best Headphones for 2019 | PCMag.com". They've clearly optimized for the mass user base, since the average person is probably fine with a result like that. But I'm willing to bet no one on HN would ever click a link like t…

The discussions button would be 90% of my search if was available. Maybe a filter for popular boards like reddit or hn would be a game changer.

Re: The world needs more search engines

#433
post #412
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... so Google wasn't able to cheat with privileged information about me as a user." The way they "cheated" was to look at the tens, hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of previous queries that matched yours in substance. If the competing websites for "web search" had the same volume of submitted queries that are substantially similar to yours, then they too would be able to give you "exactly" what you are look…

There’s some truth to that but Google also has a massive knowledge graph. For imdb and freebase like queries they can give very accurate answers as cards. Other humans don’t need to teach every single fact. They just need to teach how to extract and organize facts from a site. When you see google giving you a one/two word answer as a card, that’s very likely coming from it’s knowledge graph. What we need is more of t…

I am not a Google search user so I am not sure what they are doing with "cards", however it sounds as though they are trying more to themselves become a "secondary source" (versus, e.g., just providing some "context" around the matched terms). The goal being that the user never has to leave the Google website.

For example, say the film credits for Spiderman is a "primary source", and a cast list for Spiderman derived from the credits at IMDb is a "secondary source". Google extracts the information from IMDb and substitutes itself as the secondary source.

Does this raise an issue in that ideally users should sometimes be retrieving information from (i.e., accessing) primary and secondary sources directly, whereas a third party always acting as a universal secondary source, e.g., a third party funded by advertising, might introduce (more) bias into the information retrieval process, e.g., in competition for "eyeballs".

From the OP references: https://sparktoro.com/blog/less-than-half-of-google-searches...

Re: The world needs more search engines

#434
post #256
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you're confirming that Google tracks you without using fingerprinting methods? That's literally the opposite of what s/he just said. The person you're responding asked "How would it know?", implying that they (while being on the Google ads team) think there is no way to know without fingerprinting (or cookies from non-incognito mode).

Right: fingerprinting is the general term for using something other than client-side storage (cookies, local storage) to determine identity. Incognito mode and other private sessions intentionally don't preserve client-side storage.

If I may ask you a personal question: how do you feel about working on ads for Google, given that a lot of people find Google's tracking practices (to make personalized ads possible) questionable at best? Did you specifically choose that team, or was that just were Google needed more hands?

Personally, Google ads give me mixed feelings. I see how personalization is useful for everyone involved and, so long as only machines look at my data, I don't have any personal issues with it. But at the same time, Google collects everything on everyone worldwide to the point where I feel like the USA would have an easy time conquering any country they please (if a nation already has live data on pretty much all its enemy's subjects, war would be exceedingly efficient for them to start and quickly win), so that kind of threatens our freedom if you see what I mean; and secondly the data is not necessarily 100% secure, so in the event of a breach it might be seen by humans, specifically people that I would not want to know what I searched for (or pages I visited that have Analytics or an embedded YouTube video or ads or a map on their contact page or ...). So it's a mixed bag of feelings and your position (job) seems like the kind that would make one think about before accepting. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it.

Re: The world needs more search engines

#435
post #160
post #73

Google's dominance is almost entirely due to the fact that its by far the best at search. I use ddg, but I use google search via !g about 25-50% of the time after a failed attempts. And 9 times out of 10 Google gives me exactly what I'm looking for. For instance: "the actor that plays the news guy in spiderman" ddg: Tom Holland (side bar) Spider-Man Homecoming (imdb) Tom Holland (wiki) Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Ver…

To be fair, that example query is more of a personal assistant kind of question. If I want to know who played in that movie, either I know which site has that information (IMDB) and go there directly, or I search for something like "actors spiderman movie ". If you want DDG to understand natural language queries, I think their privacy policy may need to be adjusted so that our queries can actually be used to develop…

I type "name of the movie !imdb", which takes me straight to IMDB's search results for that name.

!bangs are the main reason why it's always going to be difficult for me to switch from DDG to anything else.

Re: The world needs more search engines

#436
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the feedback, if you find something fishy in the requests then that's like a bug and we will gladly fix it ASAP. Disclaimer: I work at Cliqz.

For the current Cliqz Browser (1.30.1) when I type "pythux" in the URL bar the request looks like this: GET /api/v2/results?nrh=1&q=pythuxs=UTlnJzAh4ULkORaiZgLPO6LW9LOWZZoO&n=5&qc=0&lang=en&locale=en-US&platform=0&o=%5B%5B%22custom-search%22%5D%5D&country=de&adult=0&loc_pref=ask&count=10&suggest=0 HTTP/1.1 Host: api.cliqz.com 1. I saw UTlnJzAh4ULkORaiZgLPO6LW9LOWZZoO in other requests too, but not all of them. Can yo…

Man, you really got them here haha.

Thanks for taking the time to dig into things. Comments like these are why I continue to regularly read Hacker News.

Re: The world needs more search engines

#437
As far as I remember there's Google, there's Bing, something that only works with Chinese, something that only works with Russian, search engines that barely work at all and a bunch of meta search engines, that use Google or Bing or both at the same time under the hood, like DDG, Searx, Startpage, etc.

So yeah, I'm down for more search engines. If there wasn't only one dominant one, SEO wouldn't be such a problem, either, I imagine.

Re: The world needs more search engines

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of this teaches one lesson: be more like Apple. Treat your customers poorly and massively overcharge them. Make sure you are never the biggest in your field. Essentially, don't offer products that are too good for the price. You’re wrong on both counts: Apple has its own share of potentially monopolistic behavior, and there are billions of people worldwide who disagree with you on how the company treats them.

So Apple is a “monopoly” over what exactly?

The entire ecosystem running on iOS/OS X. This is exclusive on Apple produced hardware, which effectively forms a single relevant market as you cannot easily substitute this with others even if there's a small but significant and non-transitory increase in price.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_but_significant_and_non-...

Re: The world needs more search engines

#439
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google's dominance is almost entirely due to the fact that its by far the best at search. Yeah, and due to economies of scale and network effects it will stay that way, unless some people are willing to suffer the minor inconvenience of using a slightly inferior competitor.

Why would they tho?

Because they have the ability to use available information to predict the future and don't like what they see if they continue to use Google?

Re: The world needs more search engines

#440
post #73

Google's dominance is almost entirely due to the fact that its by far the best at search. I use ddg, but I use google search via !g about 25-50% of the time after a failed attempts. And 9 times out of 10 Google gives me exactly what I'm looking for. For instance: "the actor that plays the news guy in spiderman" ddg: Tom Holland (side bar) Spider-Man Homecoming (imdb) Tom Holland (wiki) Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Ver…

When DDG doesn't yield the results I'm looking for, I will frequently try Google, but more and more I find that if DuckDuckGo can't find the results that I want, then neither can Google. What Google can do however, is annoy me with results that it knows to be wrong, because it is excluded the most specific part of my query. Google will remove the bit that absolutely had to be in the query, to get more hits on the maj…

For the "most of us" point, keep in mind that Google has a superior international infrastructure. At least in Finland, DuckDuckGo's loading time for search results is about 2 seconds compared to Google's <0.5s. This makes using ddg surprisingly annoying.
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