Earlier quoted context omitted.
The general dismissal of "conspiracy theories" as being categorically untrue and the realm of insane people is such a tired notion. Happily for the power structure, it is the very notion they hope we all parrot. Countless comments here and in similar threads start with some preamble about not believing in conspiracy theories, but... People all over the world are engaged in conspiracies. A theory is an attempt to unde…
> One thing I've learned is that if the media repeats something over and over again in order to imprint it into your brain, it's probably because there is an agenda behind it and not because it's the good old truth. Like I asked the other person with this exact same opinion. Do you believe this to be true of all media or only the media you already disagree with?
Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says
431–435 of 435 posts
Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says
#432Earlier quoted context omitted.
People kill themselves when under observation all the time. The people observing are negligent, the systems don't work, people think 5 minute of 15 minute obs are sufficient. It's not in any way uncommon. Statistical methodology hides the true numbers. People talk about "suicide" when they should be asking about "suspected self inflicted death".
> It's not in any way uncommon. Could you put numbers on that? From what I can tell, in the facility where Epstein died, there have been many thousands of people held, and only one recorded suicide in the last 40 years. Do you disagree with this claim, and think there were many more suicides that were not recorded as such? Or do you consider this rate to be "not in any way uncommon"? I could agree with "not impossibl…
> Do you disagree with this claim
Yes.
It's clearly nonsense to suggest that no-one has caused their own death while in that prison, so we need to ask what is being counted and how it's being counted.
Suicide accounts for at least one quarter of unnatural death in jails. Suicide is the leading cause of death in local jails. Deaths by suicide are consistently higher in jails than in the general population. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/mlj07.txt
Are they talking about NVDRS, or about state reports, or about institution reports? What ICD10 codes are they using?
Are they only including deaths where the person died in the prison and that are ruled by coroners to be suicide? Because these two things alone will remove most deaths from the stats. Or are they including all deaths where the lethal action was completed in the jail, even if the person died later in hospital? Many people will die in hospital, not the prison.
A suicide verdict will require a coroner / medical examiner to be convinced to whatever burden of proof they're using (beyond all reasonable doubt? Preponderance of evidence? balance of probabilities?) that the death was both self-inflicted and that the dead person had the intent to end their life. These are high thresholds, which is why statistical organisations (ONS in UK, CDC in US) don't count death by suicide by only counting verdicts of suicide from coroners.
The vast majority of people talking about this death do not know what type of coronial / medical examiner system is used for deaths that occur in that prison. They don't know what burdens of proof are used. They don't know what a coroner / medical examiner needs to know to find a verdict of suicide. They don't know about the high rates of deaths by suicide among prisoners. They don't know that while, male, middle-aged, sex-offending, inmates are at highest risk of death by suicide. They don't know about the high rates of negligence among prison guards tasked with monitoring people at risk of suicide. And yet, even though they're ignorant of all this, they feel free to make wild speculation that he was murdered.
Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says
#433Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure I follow you here. Which claim do you consider to be extraordinary, the claim that Epstein was killed, or the claim the Epstein was a suicide? Neither claim seems "extraordinary".
Suicide is as high as a third of all prison deaths depending on facility. Homicide is like 2-4%. The claim that someone entered a locked prison cell, killed Epstein, and then left without getting caught is the definition of extraordinary. It's possible, but then it's possible I'm being paid to post this by his killers rather than just be some schmuck in Chicago waiting for a meeting to be over.
At best, maybe we could say that both potential instances (suicide and homicide) are extraordinary, since what we would expect to happen in the ordinary circumstance is neither suicide nor homicide; but that wasn't the impression given by the original statement.
It could be equally said, therefore, that the claim Epstein hung himself with dental floss inside a secure facility without being captured on camera is also extraordinary. So, when I asked, I wasn't sure which of these two events was supposed to be "extraordinary", because neither really seemed to rank more extraordinary than the other, and still don't.
My condolences about being stuck in Chicago. I spent a good amount of time downtown around Merchandise Mart. Crazy traffic.
Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says
#434Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says
#435Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not in any way uncommon. Could you put numbers on that? From what I can tell, in the facility where Epstein died, there have been many thousands of people held, and only one recorded suicide in the last 40 years. Do you disagree with this claim, and think there were many more suicides that were not recorded as such? Or do you consider this rate to be "not in any way uncommon"? I could agree with "not impossibl…
> and only one recorded suicide in the last 40 years. > Do you disagree with this claim Yes. It's clearly nonsense to suggest that no-one has caused their own death while in that prison, so we need to ask what is being counted and how it's being counted. Suicide accounts for at least one quarter of unnatural death in jails. Suicide is the leading cause of death in local jails. Deaths by suicide are consistently highe…