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Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

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431–440 of 523 posts

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#431
If anyone has read "Walden Two" by B.F. Skinner, it promotes an interesting premise of work that is assigned based on how tasteful or distasteful it is. For example, gardening only counts for 0.25 credits per hour, while cleaning counts for more.

Also, all workers are assigned a small portion of manual labor to stay in shape.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#432
post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

> such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. Your entire post is overgeneralization and dramatizing to prove some poorly thought out hypothesis but this here is the most obvious example. When there is enough choice people change jobs all the time - the demand in my l…

“I don’t see where shame enters the equation.”

Perhaps because you’ve generalized away, to the point of absurdity, the dramatic effects of a number of well debated set of systems that maintain social norms.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#433
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the organization you work for should have spent more in security.

The thieves climbed up to the second floor and smashed a window. I'm not sure what kind of security could have prevented this.

Eyes on the building. Bars/shutters on the windows. An alarm system. Caltrops on the floor. A locked room with a decent door for the laptops, and/or a strongbox. Africanized killer bees. Full-disk encryption on the laptops themselves.

There's plenty of reasonable measures that organizations can take to protect their equipment and data. "Give the laptops to the employees, they might be stolen if left in the building" is not one of them, not if they care at all about information security.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...what? Almost all of that 30x is because of better technology, not the number of hours. We could switch to something like 32 hour weeks, 40 work weeks per year, and still have a truly enormous GDP.

Sure. My point was more that if you choose to work an extra hour, you're vastly more rewarded for it now. And I guess that's one reason people do it.

The value of extra income drops the more you have. All else equal, more money per hour should decrease the number of hours worked. The biggest exception is when you're taking advantage of a great deal to save up now and retire or half-retire early, but even that is still reducing your lifetime average work hours per year.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What proportion of the total jobs market [in your country || in your supply chains] are you looking at though. The parent might be a generalisation but you're objecting based on the thinnest sliver of contrary occupations. Seems like the parent could well be on the money for all menial roles?

The whole thing is much better explained through supply demand and security. When job supply is low you want to maintain a close relationship with your employer because you hope this grants job security. When the demand outpaces supply suddenly people are forced to bid up wages - I agree that the culture might need time to catch up - like initially the risk averse will still be stuck in this mode and few will change…

It’s called metaphor and analogy. See not all humans operate on the language used in economics.

They have parallel meaning. The king wanted to shore up supply of subjects, subjects their supply of goods.

But you’re forgetting the threat of death and suffering.

The king didn’t offer things for free. It offered things in return for fealty, maybe.

There was no rigid “if you work you eat” rule. It WAS NOT simply “supply the king and he’ll feed you.” Decisions on who was fed could often come down to how the king felt that week.

There was no rigid framework that ensured “do work for king, get what you need.”

Kings didn’t give a fuck about fair trade. Neither do we now.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#436
I was lucky enough to get 4 months severance once - thanks you stronger New York labor laws, and I took 3 of those months off. I have to say, going to back to a 10 to 6:30 gig was torture. I am still not recovered from it. Once you see the Matrix, the day to day slog to your retirement becomes meaningless. Don't enter the Matrix.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#437
post #426
post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

> The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. Edgy. But also deeply ignorant of history. Servitude means you can't quit your job. That is a pretty significant modification!

A lot of people can't. They will literally not be able to pay bills.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#438
post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

When you are on your deathbed, your first thought will not be "man, I wished I had worked more".

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#439

It's comparing apples and oranges to compare medieval peasants life and modern office work. Even today in rural areas people work around the clock in and around the house to keep everything afloat and barely survive. Sitting on your butt for 10h a day and doing intellectual work seems hard only until you try to do some farming for a while - and modern farming is nothing compared to how hard it was back then, when you…

I'd argue it's actually easier to cope when what you need is repetitive hard physical labor. You don't go to sleep thinking about that big problem you still haven't solved. You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. You know with certainty that you've done your job (you can actually see it) and you know when to stop because your body will tell you to. Finally, you might be exhausted physically…

To pay for my nice computer science education, I worked in mine exploration and later a working mine.

> Another thing I'd say is that with farming (and other manual labor activities) there is very little that is not known beforehand. You might have some unexpected events, but even then, you likely know what to do in those occasions. With mental work it's a lot more unpredictable and full of unknowns.

This is laughably false. Much of the day at physical jobs is spent problem-solving and jury-rigging stuff to work, whether it's figuring out how to mount a drill platform or dealing with the tailgate falling off your pickup.

> Finally, you might be exhausted physically at the end of the day, but your mind is definitely not exhausted, which allows you to actually do something with it afterwards.

The grind of this sort of work is far more mentally exhausting than programming, and I only worked there in the summers when I was in my late teens/early 20s. The two things are not even comparable. When I realised I'd worked my last day mining, I was as happy as I've ever been.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. Your entire post is overgeneralization and dramatizing to prove some poorly thought out hypothesis but this here is the most obvious example. When there is enough choice people change jobs all the time - the demand in my l…

What's your supply and demand explanation for the following norms? - It's considered professional for employees give their employers two weeks notice before leaving. It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. - It's considered unprofessional to talk about what you're getting paid. - It's considered normal for potential employers to do back…

Most of your points feel out of date and just not true unless you're working in the boonies ie backwater areas with only 1-2 dominant employers

> It's considered unprofessional to talk about what you're getting paid.

This is no longer the case. Some companies have even taken the transparent route where everyone's salary is publicly available.

> Ask a potential employer for references or any information on their financials, and that's weird

You can work for a publicly traded company if you really want access to financial data. Even some startups will provide it if you just ask.

You can also glean insight through sites like Glass Door. They have existed well over a decade now. This issue mainly stems from employees not habitually doing enough due diligence on companies, unless there are legal and financial barriers that I missed.

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