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Information operations directed at Hong Kong

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Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#431

Post by diNgUrAndI »

incompatible wrote: post #221
diNgUrAndI wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I saw, `constant monitoring and systems like "social credit"` won't buy loyalty. Ordinary people do that more out of patriotism, an emotion against those who spread misinformation against their country. It's sort of like someone talking shit about your hometown, and you feel the urge to defend. Not a state-sponsored thing.

Do they make no distinction between the government and their country? Perhaps their country would be even better with a different government, one that isn't constantly bringing itself into disrepute with lack of openness and bullying.

Things won't turn to be bright overnight. Openness and no bullying is nice. But it takes time to get there. Some counterexamples are Iraq or Libya. Governments changed overnight to be closer to the way Westerners like. But are people better off? Civil wars. Ethnic group divides. Oil interests.

It's easier to point out things you don't like when things aren't the way you like than offer pragmatic solutions.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#432

Post by justaguyhere »

Aeolun wrote: post #319
justaguyhere wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that is super impressive about these protests (other than the sheer number of people) is the lack of looting, violence etc (not counting police violence on unarmed people). Very very impressive. Compare this with French riots etc in recent years - night and day!

I think this is partially because the French are certain their police won’t excessively go to town on them even when they are looting/pillaging. The same thing does not apply in HK I think.

I guess you missed all the news about excessive use of force by the French police during the riots, and the insane show of force by the French police on the volunteers (many of whom are French nationals btw) helping immigrants?

French police are not exactly a beacon of friendship.

You can twist this however you want - you still can't take away the fact that HK protesters seem much nicer, better organized and well behaved.

And no, I have nothing to do with China/HK, never been there etc. I am just an impartial observer impressed with the HK protesters, thats all.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#433

Post by [deleted] »

solipsism wrote: post #411
echevil wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of reasons. To begin with, seeing how biased the Western media are when they report anything related to China is both appalling and disappointing. The impression of what average American has about Chinese government, Chinese people and their relation is light years away from reality. Moreover, people immigrating to US from China tends to be more pro-democracy than average Chinese, but we got disillusioned afte…

we got disillusioned after seeing how things worked out in American politics. What parts of American politics disillusion you? And why do you think the USA should necessarily be the example? Do the criticisms you have of the USA also apply to other democracies, like the Democratic socialist countries in Europe? If not, why do you think they would constitute an effective argument against Democracy? "The USA has proble…

[deleted]

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#434

Post by diNgUrAndI »

dqpb wrote: post #241
diNgUrAndI wrote: post #211

What about "pro-democracy" activists using twitter or fb smearing the police with their own version of truth? It seems like twitter judges which version of truth to allow based on whether twitter censorship team likes the arguments or not.

It might seem like that if you don't read the article. If you did read the article, you would see this: > All the accounts have been suspended for a range of violations of our platform manipulation policies, which we define as: - Spam - Coordinated activity - Fake accounts - Attributed activity - Ban evasion

There aren't always clear definitions of these types of accounts.

Hypothetically, one ordinary twitter account saw the posts / GIFs / words that are close to the version they like, and retweet them. When the number of accounts is large, do you ban them all? When you remove the tweet, the real users retweeting the content loses the content and feels the platform is unfair. You bear the risk of banning real users.

Also, how would you judge a post is inauthentic? You look at the content! Judging by the posting pattern alone is arguably not enough. This is why Twitter's claim that banning is not based on content is questionable.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#435

Post by Riverheart »

luckylion wrote: post #352
noelsusman wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone who has thought about government for more than a few minutes believes that democracy is a form of government without significant downsides. Authoritarian governments have many advantages over democracies. An easy example is the current trade war. Authoritarian governments have a much easier time weathering pain for a long term benefit than democracies who change leaders every four years. The Chin…

> Overthrowing a democratic government is as easy as checking a box on a form. Yes and no. You're changing the representatives of the government, but the general circumstances are largely continuing. You don't see a large turn when a new government is elected in a democracy, which you would if it was "overthrown", imho. Similarly, you won't see a large turn in an authoritarian society if the president changes, becaus…

Well you might if Congress was overhauled but most of them get re-elected without term limits. People often mistake the President for some kind of autocrat who can make arbitrary decisions when the real power is in the legislature.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#436

Post by diNgUrAndI »

bouncycastle wrote: post #262
diNgUrAndI wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Even within HK there are thousands pro-police anti-protest supporters. https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/17/oppose-violence-save-h... Our opinions are shaped by what media are fed into our brains. I saw my friends divided into two camps because of the different media articles they read. How do you make sure you are not biased and only read what you believe? Rad more and find the opposing articles!

> Why not? Of course, Australia is a democracy so they are free to do so. The irony is that these "anti democracy" protestors are exercising their democratic right to protest! Perhaps there are probably ulterior motives for their behavior, eg. these people want to prove their loyalty to the party in order to gain a better acceptance/ranking, or there kinds of peer pressure. Others could be simply influenced by the CC…

> The irony is that these "anti democracy" protestors are exercising their democratic right to protest!

It's also irony that when "protestors" (or just people voicing their opinions) exercising democratic rights to protest are treated differently because they don't agree with your view.

From what I chatted with my friends, this is not about loyalty to any party. It's as simple as, when people spreads misinformation about your hometown, others seeing them and starting to talk legitimate shit about your hometown, you feel angry and voice your strong opposite opinions.

> Others could be simply influenced by the CCP mouthpiece Yeah, right. A large number of Chinese students/immigrants, being in Australian democracy and with access to all press articles on both sides, have lost their judgements and can't tell what are facts at all.

> some could actually be paid - the stakes are high enough. Please back this claim with sources.

From my experience, the people sharing the posts are ordinary people, who simply voice their concerns. Given the sheet number of them, paying them is not practical.

The irony is that we did see some posts about HK "pro-democracy" organizers paying protesters for them to go on the streets.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#437

Post by djohnston »

magduf wrote: post #170
djohnston wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

authentic voice, not paid gov't troll armies.

Devil's advocate: what if the "troll army" is actually a whole army of people from that country who are brainwashed to believe the party line? Is that not "authentic" if they really believe it?

not if they're being paid to produce the content (wumao pawns are). if they're NOT being paid, i would guess you are right, but frankly we should have disconnected china from the free world a long time ago and only given them logistics software. it's frustrating that they shut the west out but constantly try and infect the west with their backwards ideas

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#438

Post by liuliu »

yorwba wrote: post #413
liuliu wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HHDL has a long and complicated life. His idealogy cannot be simplified to "seeking peace and religious freedom". Tibet was a slavery society under his ruling 70 years ago, unfortunately. People do change, but there are certain historical bagagges cannot be nullified.

70 years ago, the Dalai Lama was 14 years old. It's unlikely he ruled much. The Panchen Lama was 11. Unfortunately, he had reincarnated as two different people supported by different factions in Tibet. One of them allied themselves first with the Kuomintang and then with the Communist Party, which eventually helped them have their candidate be recognized officially by the Dalai Lama. When the Dalai Lama (now 23) fled…

They both were kept their symbolic status at that time. HHDL was highest ranked in CCP before he fled. I don't know any evidence that sided with Koumintang backfired as you seemingly suggested for him.

Part of the system was kept (namingly the Lama leadership was kept symbolically), but the slavery is a history.

BTW, in the original post, I mentioned "70 years ago" as a way to suggest HHDL has a long and complicated life. His historical baggage by no way limits to Tibet before CCP though. It took him a long time to get his message what is today.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#439

Post by bobjordan »

lawrenceyan wrote: post #419
bobjordan wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of virtue-signaling going on here, but understanding the state of today's USA education systems, I'll try to parse it. > Is your perspective that as long as you aren’t personally targeted and can make money, it doesn’t really matter what the government does? [Bob]: No. My perspective is that of a person who spent their first 32-years in America, who one day about a decade ago during the depths of the e…

> There is a lot of virtue-signaling going on here, but understanding the state of today's USA education systems, I'll try to parse it. I’m not sure what you mean exactly by virtue signaling here. Can you highlight what parts of my comment you feel like weren’t genuine? > My perspective is that of a person who spent their first 32-years in America, who one day about a decade ago during the depths of the economic down…

> I’m not sure what you mean exactly by virtue signaling here. Can you highlight what parts of my comment you feel like weren’t genuine?

I'm not questioning that your comments were not genuine. But, it can be quite off-putting to lead your logic by explaining to someone you don't even know, how privileged they are, making many assumptions about that person and their reality. You used the word "privilege" four times in four sentences. There are other more rational and thought-provoking ways to structure your logic to engage and convince people of your views. Otherwise, you seem like a very thoughtful person, passionate about standing up for those who may not have a strong voice or representation. Those are very commendable attributes and I wish you the best.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#440

Post by FDSGSG »

bobjordan wrote: post #281
ddevault wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Haha, I'd rather you would have seen me in the Chinese police station last year, absolutely furious and further raising hell in a yelling match with the local Chief of Police after he raised his voice at my Chinese partner. Had a similar experience when my Chinese resident permit was delayed for a dumb reason, causing me to miss my daughter's high school graduation in the USA. I'm not afraid to say exactly what I thi…

So you're essentially bragging about how you're kind of a big deal and above the local cops? Am I misinterpreting your comment?
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