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Slack S-1

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431–440 of 469 posts

Re: Slack S-1

#431

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Generally, cloud is still better for many. Managing datacenters at scale is hard. It also takes time to build up capabilities in house, while cost of delay is usually far greater than cost efficiencies wrung out of infrastructure. Cloud is often a euphemism for “supported hosted software that happens to come with hardware”. Not that different from Dreamhost managing PHP for you , just richer and higher scale. Why bui…

Thanks for the insight. Why build a cheaper internal capability over 6 months when I can have a slightly more expensive service NOW that I don’t have to worry about? If it really is just slightly more expensive, that seems like it would be a good investment for many businesses. I was just curious because this isn't a field I've been working in directly for a while. Last time I looked, but that was several years ago,…

In general, AWS/GCP/Azure hosting rates are only slightly marked up as compared to DigitalOcean, Vultr, etc. especially with reserved instances.

These rates compare favourably to rolling your own DC (rack or more).

It’s the bandwidth costs that are inflated by 500-1000%, which is where all the margins come from and it creates a lock in effect as getting your data out is expensive.

Re: Slack S-1

#432
post #37

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Perhaps I'm just not aware how things work in companies of Slack's size, but... what do you think $4M/mo is spent on, for what essentially amounts to a chat app? I realise there a lot of extras in Slack (attachments cost S3 storage, video calls take bandwidth, webhooks take some processing), but as of January 2019, they had 10M daily active users. $50M/365 gives us $137K per day. $137K per day just to serve 10M activ…

Cannot this be a method to take money out from company? I.e. Slack as a company pays $50M/year and Amazon pays back 20% of this as a "reward"? At such scale it should be easier to have its own infrastructure rather than pay Amazon's overpriced bills.

Theoretically any payment can be. That’s why we have corporate auditors, money laundering and financial investigators, etc.

I doubt Jeff Bezos is running some slush fund laundering scheme.

Re: Slack S-1

#433
post #376

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What R&D does slack do to the tune of hundreds of millions per year?!? What G&A is over a hundred million a year? Do you use Slack? Yes, they have a boatload of fat to trim. They can pull an Etsy move but is that not already baked into their valuation? I, frankly, don't care enough to look as I won't be investing. I just cannot believe their VC investors let them get that bloated - it's probably why they're pushing f…

The stickiness comes from the switching costs. We have so many integrations and while setting them up again isn't insurmountable it's a great example of unproductive busy work. Why bother?

Because you have thousands of employees and it gets expensive. It’s a luxury not a necessity and in leaner times, it’s easy to switch to something equivalent but free.

Re: Slack S-1

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, 10000 more of those boxes and you can rebuild slack "in a weekend for $35k/month". Don't mind the lawsuits when you lose your customer data and forgot to pay for backups for "cost optimization" reasons. Don't mind the complaints when your uptime is barely one-nine. Don't mind the customer cancellations when your 1000-user VPS doesn't actually scale to 20k concurrents. And don't mind the HN snark when you releas…

I think you're being overly negative. I think you can do a lot with a little. Does a chat app need to be fully searchable? I don't think so. Does it need backups? I don't think so. These are features users could opt-in for if it was that important to them. Could be something simple as sending encrypted nightly diffs to an email address. The whole world doesn't need to be over engineered to have a useful product.

>Does a chat app need to be fully searchable?

This is the main reason people pay for Slack instead of sticking with the free tier, so I'm guessing that for a lot of people, it does.

Re: Slack S-1

#435
post #379

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> If you "depreciated" Slack's sales and marketing costs over the LTV of the average customer... This is starting to sound very similar to mark-to-market accounting, and the one word associated with "mark-to-market" is "Enron". From http://www.creditpulse.com/accountingfinance/lessons-enron/e... > Basically, mark-to-market is a type of accounting that enables a company to book the value of an asset or a liability, no…

LTV isn't some fluffy made up number, it's the output of a formula

But you don't actually know that a customer will remain a customer forever, whereas you do know that a truck will be worth 15% of its present value in 10 years.

Re: Slack S-1

#436
post #290
post #235

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My thought as well. What on earth about Slack costs hundreds of millions to operate?

Guess what? You can actually see in an S-1 what it costs. S&M = $233,191 for 2019 More than half their revenue is spent acquiring new customers...which, with a high likelihood, will net revenue over a N+1 year timeframe. This is an investors wet dream... I pay $1 now and I only need $.15 to operate that $1 every year for the next 7 years...that's a helluva return. In other words...you can turn off the S&M tap and the…

> S&M = $233,191 for 2019 More than half their revenue is spent acquiring new customers...

This isn't a consumer product. They're not doing magazine and television ads. Why is S&M so expensive?

Re: Slack S-1

#437
post #227
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm just not aware how things work in companies of Slack's size, but... what do you think $4M/mo is spent on, for what essentially amounts to a chat app? I realise there a lot of extras in Slack (attachments cost S3 storage, video calls take bandwidth, webhooks take some processing), but as of January 2019, they had 10M daily active users. $50M/365 gives us $137K per day. $137K per day just to serve 10M activ…

You say "chat app" like that means it's easy. How is running a chat app any easier than, say, running Facebook?

You are comparing to Facebook. Obviously Facebook has been trying to get into this market as well with their corporate offerings (which they've been surprisingly quiet about lately, suggesting that effort went nowhere). Maybe more appropriate for comparison would be their whatsapp team given that it is notoriously quite small given their enormous user base.

Slack is indeed just a chat app. There are many like it. Most of which look and feel very similar at this point. I administer a slack setup for our company and it's fine but it's nothing special. However, for what it does and what it cost, I'm not in a mood to replace it with something else. The hassle would cost us more and we'd not save a lot of money or gain any functionality that we need or indeed solve a problem we have.

We switched to Slack a few years ago from hipchat which at the time was very similar in scope, feature set, and cost. The reason we switched was that we wanted to get rid of bitbucket and some other Atlassian stuff (in favor of Gitlab, and later Github). I've also used stuff like IRC and even NNTP in the past, neither of which is appropriate for non techie teams. Lately, I've been considering switching to keybase which has a nice and easy to set up team component (I've actually set this up already). I'd probably go with that for new teams though it is still a bit rough in some respects.

Slack has awesome brand recognition but ultimately it doesn't have that many unique selling points beyond that. They've clearly grown by converting investor cash into customer acquisition. It's a common pattern with VC funded SAAS companies: compensate for a lack of unique selling points or technical edge with stupendous amounts of marketing and sales. If you think their hosting is expensive, their marketing and sales are likely way more expensive. It never was a proper tech company where things like algorithms, their awesome infrastructure, or patented stuff are the key things. It always was just another chat app done well.

Their hosting cost is quite high and suggests that they tend to throw money at problems instead of engineering talent. That's both fine and common for VC funded startups but it also suggests they will go through some lengthy rounds to re-architect internally and optimize their cost structure in the next few years after they IPO when shareholders are going to be obsessing about shareholder value.

From a technology point of view, they should indeed be able to run at a fraction of the cost but right now that's not a priority for them as they are very well funded and have a need to grow as fast as they can. Cutting cost through lengthy and complicated re-engineering projects is probably very low on their todo list and would be likely to just slow them down.

They are actually surprisingly middle of the road in terms of what they do. They do it well but when you look at their feature set there's nothing really that remarkable or unique. Their UI is alright but generic electron/react (?) which is notoriously not that fast but gets the job done. There are a lot of electron based chat apps out there and whatever your point of view on those is, slack is nothing special in that sense. Sure their UX is awesome and they clearly have some design hipsters running the show and obsessing over things like color schemes, logos, smileys, etc. But in the end it's just a generic chat app. E.g. Telegram, Signal, Facebook, Skype, Whatsapp, FB Messenger, (and Google's many attempts to compete with the Cartesian product of those) etc. each have very similar client side architectures and feature sets as well.

Sever-side they probably use Elasticsearch (which I'm well familiar with) and they seem to have a lot of centralized infrastructure and plumbing. From having used it, their search engine isn't actually that sophisticated or impressive. Clearly search ranking is not a huge attention area for them. Obviously a complicating factor is that they are running their stuff in multiple data centers across the globe. Adding to their complexity is enterprise needs for backups, auditing, security, compliance, etc.

Given their age and hipness, they probably bought into micro-services in a big way. That just means they run a lot of stuff that they scale by throwing more hardware at it. Over-provisioning is a great way to hide any performance issues. If you have dozens of micro services running in multiple data centers, things add up quickly. Add hosted data bases, search engines, queues, analytics, monitoring, devops, etc. to the mix and you are looking at some hefty hosting bills at the scale they are running it. Also many of their bigger customers probably insist on dedicated setups for them. When you grow rapidly, a lot of that stuff is just a side effect of Conway's law where you end up with a lot of moving parts because you have a lot of different teams.

Re: Slack S-1

#438
post #435
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LTV isn't some fluffy made up number, it's the output of a formula

But you don't actually know that a customer will remain a customer forever, whereas you do know that a truck will be worth 15% of its present value in 10 years.

Averaged out across all customers you kind of do though. You know the rate coming in and the rate leaving.

Re: Slack S-1

#439
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t see anyone clamoring to allow these small investor be allowed to get in on unicorns pre IPO Really? This sentiment is blanketed all over HN and other investment forums. One of the major macro changes to the investment landscape is rapidly growing companies staying private longer such that the gains benefit a much smaller pool of investors.

Doesn't everyone want the option to get in on these deals before they've been pumped and dumped? WE know the truth. The ipo buyers don't.

Not sure why you're being downvoted. Most of the major IPOs of the last few years seem to follow that hump-into-oblivion pattern after public markets get in on it

Re: Slack S-1

#440
post #11

"Our revenue was $105.2 million, $220.5 million, and $400.6 million in fiscal years 2017, 2018, and 2019, respectively, representing annual growth of 110% and 82%, respectively. Our growth is global with international revenue representing 34%, 34%, and 36% of total revenue in fiscal years 2017, 2018, and 2019, respectively. We continue to invest in growing our business to capitalize on our market opportunity. As a re…

Is there any other industry where a company can go public having lost $500,000,000 over the last 3 years? I get it their “market share” is increasing every year and the loses are staying the same...and even that is not the full picture of a path to profit. But if the company could turn a profit, then why not do it privately, show that and then go public? My guess like Uber and Lyft...they can’t turn a profit, and for…

While I'm sympathetic to your argument in general, a Slack-type company is very different from Uber and Lyft because the former is effectively zero marginal cost. It's much more the classic Silicon Valley type software company. Uber and Lyft are very much not zero marginal cost businesses.
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