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Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

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Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#431
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've got a typo here: points should be 0-dimensional.

A point is 0-dimensional, but in a space-time diagram the time dimension is added, which makes it 1-dimensional. Penrose diagrams for black holes assume spherical symmetry, so all of space is represented by a single radial coordinate, which makes it possible to display such diagrams in 1+1=2 dimensions.

A singularity doesn't have a dimension. It is a portion of spacetime that is missing, not a point or set of points. We can't define its dimensionality, either.(×) What we can say is that the singularity in Schwarzschild black holes is spacelike.

×) Counterexample: Consider the manifold M := R³\B, where B is the closed unit ball, equipped with the standard Euclidean metric. This manifold is certainly not Cauchy-complete and we can reach the singularity at r=1 in finite time. Now, if we had to define the dimension of the singularity, what dimension n should it have? n=2 (a sphere)? Maybe. At least we could extend M by the unit sphere to make it complete. But could the singularity also be a point (i.e. n=1)? Yes, certainly. By diffeomorphism invariance, we could simply find new coordinates and map R³\B to R³\{0}, so the singularity would suddenly become a point. So, as you can see, interpreting the singularity as a point or set of points that have a topological dimension doesn't work.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, interesting! Wouldn't it be easier to photograph our own? :-)

Nope. The view of our own galaxy's supermassive black hole is completely obstructed by matter within our own galaxy. You can't see to the core of our galaxy; it's too dense. You'd have to send a rocket quite some distance outside of the galactic plane to get a good view of it.

The images are made with radio telescopes, which cuts through the dust quite easily. We have many other radio observations of Sagittarius A* [1], albeit at much lower resolutions. There are also numerous observations of Sagittarius A* in X-ray wavelengths, which is also fine because they are so energetic they simply punch through. All the dust and gas in the galaxy is transparent at most wavelengths except the visible one.

The Event Horizon Telescope is interesting because it is, in essence, a radio telescope that uses a "sensor" that is the size of the entire Earth. As such, it is able to make much higher resolution observations.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A*#/media/File:Clo...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A*#/media/File:X-R...

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#433
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've got a typo here: points should be 0-dimensional.

Are you sure it's a typo? https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/194947 (I'm not a physicist.)

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, this is a legitimate question. However, in this particular case, I think the final sentence of the accepted answer on Physics.SE, namely that

> In this diagram the singularity is a line in spacetime i.e. a one dimensional object in spacetime.

is wrong or at least very misleading – the answer does (correctly) say that asking for the "dimensionality of a singularity […] is a meaningless question because the spacetime geometry is undefined at a singularity".

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#434
post #276

I am not trying to throw cold water on this, but I have some questions. This ted talk has a very basic explanation of how they constructed this image. I was curious if anyone with image interpolation experience could weigh in on the method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7n2rYt9wfU When she first starts explaining their method around 8:00m in, I was initially very skeptical of this result because she said that they…

Yes, at ~6:53 in the video she shows how they are selecting images to include that look like a black hole. If you plug in enough noisy images you will eventually get a few that look like a bright donut.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#435
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just had my wife watch it and yea, that was the first thing I noticed, they really did a good job on the science of interstellar. When interstellar came out wired did a full magazine spread on the movie, covering its science, how they came up with the story and what the director did to make sure it was believable. idk what it looks like online but I've kept the magazine.

The visualization I liked the best in Interstellar was that of the wormhole, seen from the outside. (The "travel" through it was rubbish.) The thing would look like a mirror sphere, floating in the middle of space, reflecting the space around you. Except it would be the space on the other side of the wormhole, not that behind you, and the motion of the "mirrored" image would be opposite of that on a real mirror. (The…

Relevant paper: https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1119/1.4916949?class=p...

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#436

How big a VLBI baseline would they need to see much more detail? Are there any plans for a space based VLBI; not easy when you consider the utterly huge amounts of information they have to transfer, a radio telescope in a L5 would be a start. Also I'd be interested to read how they got around scintallation of the Interstellar Medium.

>> Also I'd be interested to read how they got around scintallation of the Interstellar Medium. One of the reasons they've imaged M87* rather than a black hole in our own galaxy was to avoid dealing with ISM scattering - we don't have to look through our edge-on disk, so it's easier to image another galaxy's center somehow. But the Sgr A* image might be in the works already, it was mentioned in both the press-confere…

How does one even deal with ISM scattering?

The optical equivalent can be dealt with by active optics, or picking frames with best seeing, but for ISM I imagine it is a fair bit different.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#437

Good video that correctly predicted the image and describes why it looks the way it does [1]. TL; DR The dark area is the entire surface of the event horizon, including the side facing away from us, plus some more due to photons missing the event horizon "directly" being drawn in. One side is brighter due to its being Doppler boosted. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUyH3XhpLTo

Wow, the video you posted is even more informative and clear than the actual press conference, and it was created by someone who hadn't even seen the image yet based purely on the mathematical predictions of what we would see. Kind of sad that after all the amazing effort and resources that have gone into the creating the image that the international team couldn't have featured an explanation as clear as this in thei…

It'd be extremely shocking if he hadn't been able to. The math has been known for a very long time the largest differences would be based on the orientation of disk relative to us but that has been mostly known since the original Hubble picture. If he'd been significantly wrong that'd mean our understanding of the physics was wrong or something unknown was happening at a pretty large scale.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#439
post #282
post #72

The papers with the scientific details are here (open access): https://iopscience.iop.org/journal/2041-8205/page/Focus_on_E... Article in physics world with comparisons to simulations: https://physicsworld.com/a/first-images-of-a-black-hole-unve... "AskScience" AMA on Reddit about the breakthrough: https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/bbknik/askscien...

From reddit: >"Hi, regarding the image itself: What I don't understand is why does it look like a donut and not a bright sphere? Assuming the black hole is actually spherical and not disc shaped, I would expect the Halo to be spherical and surrounding the black hole? so all we would see would be the ball of bright gas, even though there is a black hole in the middle?" This is also what I would have expected.

Material can come in towards the black hole from any angle. However, because matter can't just pass through other matter, matter travelling in the wrong directions will collide more frequently than matter travelling in the right direction. Because of the conservation of angular momentum, the "right" direction will depend on the average angular momentum of everything in the cloud that is collapsing into the disk.

You might be interested to know that this is the same reason all the planets in our solar system orbit in the same disk: all the matter that is now in our solar system was originally a very thin cloud of gas with a small amount of overall angular momentum. As gravity drew it together it flattended out into a disk and eventually the clumps became planets (and the sun in the middle.)

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