Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#431

Post by solidsnack9000 » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:13 PM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #326

rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

[edited for typos and grammer] Anecdotally, I've run a couple of tech conferences and know others who have as well fairly recently. We've made a point to hold workshops for under represented groups, had the Codes of Conduct, make a lot of extra effort to reach out to women as speakers etc.. In the end, we would get 5 to 10 times as many talk submissions from men, accept nearly all of the talks by women (often turning…

It's one thing to fight against blatant sexism which I'm for, but this is turning into something else.

Maybe it's the result of individuals asynchronously but collaboratively acting to get the most for their class of people. Since there isn't a "council of women in technology" that meets bi-weekly to decide what each speaker should do for each conference, the women speakers act independently much of the time. To get the best for women they know they have to ask for stuff: fees, travel, tickets for other women. Men are not going to just give it to them. They try to do their level best there every time they get an invite. Every so often -- through casual conversation, meet-ups, online communities, articles in magazines, letters to the editor -- there is a chance to communicate about what worked and what didn't. There isn't an easy way for communication to happen about the net effect of speakers' actions for a particular conference when it's happening, or even afterward. There is a ratchet effect and in, addition, a general sense that "there is still more to be done" for women in technology. When the next conference rolls around, still more is attempted...

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#432

Post by kuzehanka » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #405

TeMPOraL wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I prefer dynamic systems view. We're oscillating. We've been under the target, overcorrected, and we're above the target now. Like always in (widely-understood) politics, this will be met with another overcorrection; all we can hope for is that there's dampening in the system, so that we'll converge on target at some point.

I don’t really like being accepting of oscillation. Forward movement, progress, shouldn’t be defined as updating who we discriminate against. Progress would be to stop discriminating. Optimizing for equality of outcome seems to be causing discrimination. That doesn’t look like progress to me.

It is not progress at all. The pendulum of who to discriminate against has been swinging back and forth for hundreds of years. And every time a new group is targeted, it is to the cheers of some other group.

It's difficult to have a factual debate around workplace discrimination because anyone who suggests that women are being favoured, is instantly attacked by social justice activists who rely more on moral outrage rather than facts or logic. A lot of the discussion on this thread today would not be something that people would say out loud near coworkers.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#433

Post by chc » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #417

chc wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let me give you an example outcome and maybe you can explain to me how the third possibility applies in a way that is meaningfully distinct from the first two. Outcome: The women working as programmers at FooSoft make on average 10% less than the men working there. Possible reasons: 1. Lack of opportunity (e.g. people in power at FooSoft have bias against them makes it harder for them to have their contributions…

Let's be specific and replace FooSoft with Google. A quick search suggests that only 20% of programmers in general are female, but 30% of Google programmers are female. I'm not certain these numbers are accurate, but if they are, female programmers are over represented at Google. That would mean Google hired a greater percentage of female programmers than male programmers. That is, if Google hired the top 0.1% of mal…

Let me get this straight: When women are hired less, it's because they're simply not interested. But when men are hired less, it's because they're being discriminated against?

I think my hypothesis is simpler:

- Women are discriminated against in the industry as a whole

- Google actively discriminates in favor of women

It's discrimination both times.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#434

Post by dahart » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

avip wrote: post #333

rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

The funny thing is it's all open. Women-only positions in unis and so. My wife was even invited to a women-only conference! I asked her if she would go to a "white only" or "Christian only" event.

What large scale white & Christian discrimination has existed historically, in the US? When were white Christians not allowed to vote or paid less? What's wrong with a conference for women, how exactly is that different than a conference for engineers, or a store for pet owners?

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#435

Post by movedx » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #371

rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

> areas with primarily male coworkers, and creepy bosses This describes basically every tech job I have ever had. Real life engineering woman here reporting in. In 2014 I joined a series B startup as engineer #15 and was the only woman in the office other than the admin; food delivery dudes often brought things to my desk, assuming I must be the office mother. When I was late to work one day after being groped by a s…

I'm honestly quite taken aback by this.

I want to say sorry, and I will, but I know it's not personally my fault and I know it won't make much of a difference to your circumstances now or in the future. But still, I'm sorry you've had this experience.

I have to be honest and say this, but I think what you've experienced is very much an American culture kind-of-thing. Every time I read a comment like this, besides making me sad and angry, it tends to always come from somewhere in America.

I'm sure something similar has happened and continues to happen here in Australia, but I've seen little of it. That being said, as I sit here now in a very large, well known company, my line of sight gives me a head count of about 30 men and 2 women. This makes me sad and angry, too.

I don't know what to do about this besides encouraging women to come into the industry and protecting them in a none condescending, white-knight, women-are-weak sort of way...

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#436

Post by djsumdog » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #371

rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

> areas with primarily male coworkers, and creepy bosses This describes basically every tech job I have ever had. Real life engineering woman here reporting in. In 2014 I joined a series B startup as engineer #15 and was the only woman in the office other than the admin; food delivery dudes often brought things to my desk, assuming I must be the office mother. When I was late to work one day after being groped by a s…

I'm sorry you've had shitty experiences. No on deserves that.

Honestly I'm terrible at names and people only remember mine because it's ethnic. I wouldn't read too much in clients not remembering your name correctly. Humans are generally just bad at names and it might not have anything to do with their perception of you.

I have to ask though, why do you think you were often one of the few/only women/woman at these shops. Did they actively try to recruit women? Did you see women get interviewed but who just didn't make the cut? The last time I was at a shop where they made me go through resumes, I rarely even saw women in the application stack.

I worked with an amazingly talented woman who started back in the day at RealMedia writing C++ codecs. She told me about several cases of harassment or even things like asking her to wear a certain dress a manager liked when she was at trade shows/booths.

I also worked with an English woman at the same company several years my senior, who's been both a developer and product manager, and who says she hasn't experienced that type of harassment while in the tech sector.

I hate anecdotal stuff like this though, because it just doesn't build a big enough picture, which is why actual studies are insightful.

But going back to my question: do you think these shops were actively discriminating against women, passively (subconsciously) discriminating or there simply weren't enough women applicants (they do tend to get sucked up by the big players like Google/Facebook/etc.)

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#437

Post by smileysteve » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

bargl wrote: post #357

ggggtez wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that men sometimes like babies and animals too? Crazy I know. What is taught in 4th-5th grade math? Fractions? Decimals? Multiplication and division of larger numbers (maybe the accursed "Long Division")? These are not exactly the most exciting or interesting things to learn... If I was a parent of this child, I'd take it as a notice that they are falling behind, probably from lousy teaching and parentin…

Are you a parent? I ask because I remember saying stuff like this before I had kids. I don't anymore. I've tried to learn not to judge others parenting but hey that's just me. No one, at least that I've seen. Is saying men don't like babies and animals too. There is nothing wrong with that. To assume that you have to like something based on your gender is ignorant. To assume that you can't like what is "stereotypical…

I don't think you're listening to the above poster very well; or giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Boys are statistically over prescribed ADD medication in schools because, studies show, teachers are more likely to write them up for being a distraction to class.

So, this thread says the daughter is being pushed to like math over animals, yet, you doubt that a son (there is no gender gap pre-high school in math, infact, females earn higher grades) is being pushed to study math over animals, recess, or babies.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the...

https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/women_and_m...

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#438

Post by krn » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #404

krn wrote: post #121

As a side note: I have recently come over a university which promised a gender equality in "all our science degrees", which it explained as an "admission of 50% males, 50% females". But how can it be a "gender equality", if 80% of the applicants are males?

Was it in advertising or other official materials? If so, could you reference them?

It was one of the universities in Germany, but I cannot find the source now. I was primarily reading material on the postgraduate studies. As a semi-reference, this Spegiel article[1] explains how important the perception of gender equality has become in German academia in recent years.

[1] http://spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/potsdam-university...

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#439

Post by movedx » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:17 PM UTC

avivo wrote: post #410

It's interesting how this sort of discussion is actually leading HN to be more of an echo chamber. Most of my female friends in tech completely avoid it now because it seems that discussions that get voted up tend to ignore or belittle their experiences—even if there may be lots of great points and perspectives mixed in. In fact, the only response I noticed explicitly from someone who identified as female was being d…

> Instead many women just avoid HN—which in turn means that it becomes more male dominated, with more upvotes and mindshare to comments about experiences of "the other" that may not by particularly well informed—because it's not worth the time of a woman to even chime in.

So how do we solve this? How do we be more inclusive from day zero? Where does it all begin?

I think you'll find these problems stem much earlier in a man's life when the education system helps teach them to be men and helps women be women in the traditional sense. We're all placed in boxes and told to be a certain way.

So what do we do?

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#440

Post by smileysteve » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

ggggtez wrote: post #356

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love math. I tried to make her a mathematician. But nope. Doesn't work. At all. I'm still available if she changes her mind one day!

This is a mistake of the parent. You can't "make" them become something. That's why they hate it, not because of the school. You are forcing them to do it. I've seen this with people who are coders trying to force their kids to make websites (like they did when they were a kid). But guess what: maybe you did it because it was fun, but for her it's a chore because she didn't come up with the idea! If she likes animals…

This, I see burnout in college athletes because they didn't actually want to be good at their sport, but mom and dad made them.