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NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

theguardian.com

431–440 of 477 posts

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#431
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one that provides people (the illusion of) liberty through movement.

Cars and roads have plenty of problems, sure, but I have no idea what you mean by this "illusion of freedom".

If you always need a car to go places (work, groceries, visit friends, church, etc.), is it still freedom?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#432
post #403
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a nice sentiment - in that case we should all work in the public sector and and get those things...oh yeah....

I'm just surprised that people would propose to solve a problem by taking those things away from people.

That’s fair - and again think it’s a laudable goal.

It used to be that if you worked in the public sector you forwent a market rate salary in exchange for job security and a secure pension. Public sector employees are now making market wages + extremely valuable benefits which in turn are bankrupting municipalities.

In this context how do you tell a tax paying private sector mechanic, that his taxes need to go up in order to pay for the extremely generous union benefits of a public sector mechanic (who may make more than him)?

Lastly I would argue that municipalities have something of a fiducuiary duty to tax payers to get value for their tax dollar spent - rather than rewarding a voter block at tax payer expense.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just commented to someone the other day- I loved how clean the metro was but hated the prices for sub-par services. I hate the distance based pricing.

What's wrong with distance based pricing?

Distance based pricing is fine. But can't they make it a little simpler? Increments of $1 would be nice. Instead of $3.85, just make it $4.00.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the level of contempt for people riding subways? Where do you get off? Not only are they better for the environment, they're one of the great equalizers. I don't have contempt for people riding the subway, I have contempt for the organization that perpetrates that fraud on society. > Any person can ride the subway for the same price as anyone else and get around the entire city 24 hours a day. At what cost? As…

Your analysis is exactly backwards base on history. One of the main drives to create corporate campuses outside of cities was to prevent competing firms from recruiting employees. Same goes for creating company restaurants and dry cleaning etc. keep employees on your campus and a way from competition. When they work downtown and walk out into the community they bump into people randomly and those unexpected connectio…

I don't think this is accurate whatsoever. I think the main driver of these decisions is real estate. It's simply much cheaper to build a low-rise complex on lots of acreage than it is to obtain the same square footage downtown.

However, if a corporation can reallocate labor capital into real estate, IMO what happens in the NYC area, that's what they'll do.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that most of the wear and tear on our roads isn't caused by people's cars. People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads. Semis cause 1,400x more wear than cars [1]. [1] https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf

it is my potatoes in the trucks. I can pay the road tax, or more for potato. doesn't matter.

Or, if potatoes had to be shipped at market cost, potatoes from far away would be less competitive to potatoes grown closer.

Net result would be better prices for local farms, less road maintenance needed, no impact to the end consumer overall (less taxes to support less roads).

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#436

The problem with urban transport systems is that no one sees them for what they really are... an expensive thing that drives the economy. There seems to be an obsession in the west with making public transport pay for itself, but the reality is that a few billion invested in better public transport results in a lot more billions being made elsewhere. We need to get away from this idea that public transport systems ne…

Nobody expects the NYC subway to "break even or even turn a profit." The subway historically recovers less than 50% of its operating expenditures from fares, compared to 70% for Berlin, 88% for Amsterdam, and over 100% in Tokyo, Taipei, Hong Kong, and Singapore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio . MTA is broke because it costs several times as much for MTA to do anything compared to its counterpart…

I expect it to break even or turn a profit. It's the most perfect way to gauge it's true economic value. Unfortunately for tax payers, it's only subsidizing otherwise intolerable commuting conditions, and acts as a strong subsidy to downtown property owners.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#437
post #432
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just surprised that people would propose to solve a problem by taking those things away from people.

That’s fair - and again think it’s a laudable goal. It used to be that if you worked in the public sector you forwent a market rate salary in exchange for job security and a secure pension. Public sector employees are now making market wages + extremely valuable benefits which in turn are bankrupting municipalities. In this context how do you tell a tax paying private sector mechanic, that his taxes need to go up in…

How do you know what is a "market wage" for a NYC subway worker? It's not like you can compare them to someone doing the same job in the private sector.

>how do you tell a tax paying private sector mechanic [...]

How do you tell a tax paying public sector mechanic that they're going to lose their pension and health insurance?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#438
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There seems to be an obsession in the west with making public transport pay for itself Not a crazy idea considering how some systems operate in the East - Tokyo, Osaka and Hong Kong systems not only pay for themselves, but churn out profits along the way. Singapore’s MRT is designed to operate at break-even. The trick is to allow the transportation authority to own and manage its own real estate. This way when a ne…

> The trick is to allow the transportation authority to own and manage its own real estate. Well, that seems like a pretty major subsidy. So if a new line or station is built, the government uses eminent domain (or equivalent) to buy the land, and gives it to the transport authority? I mean, it might be better in that it lets the transport authority operate without being dependent on government handouts that can vary…

I am not sure how land ownership typically works - it seems that governments anywhere pretty much have to own a large chunk of the land to bore tunnels, build the station proper, accommodate parking, onramps, roads, pickup zones, etc. E.g., how did BART pick the location for San Jose Beryessa extension?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody expects the NYC subway to "break even or even turn a profit." The subway historically recovers less than 50% of its operating expenditures from fares, compared to 70% for Berlin, 88% for Amsterdam, and over 100% in Tokyo, Taipei, Hong Kong, and Singapore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio . MTA is broke because it costs several times as much for MTA to do anything compared to its counterpart…

I expect it to break even or turn a profit. It's the most perfect way to gauge it's true economic value. Unfortunately for tax payers, it's only subsidizing otherwise intolerable commuting conditions, and acts as a strong subsidy to downtown property owners.

> It's the most perfect way to gauge it's true economic value.

Seems like an incredidibly narrow-minded way to gauge its economic value to me.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#440
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a source for any of that? It's one thing to say labor costs are a primary driver of costs. It's quite another so say Labor Union costs are the primary driver.

Unions are definitely the primary driver. Construction unions in New York are using current contracts to pay for their pension liabilities. In other words, taxpayers today are paying for work that was done 30 years ago. This guy is sort of irritating if you have to read him for more than a few hours, but his blog is full of evidence and analysis on this topic. https://larrylittlefield.wordpress.com/2018/08/15/an-open…

This article is about capital costs, not labor costs.

>One point construction experts are making, however, is that taxpayers are paying premiums for these public projects since they aren’t being done open shop. The Empire Center report calculated that the government ends up paying 25 percent more for public projects in New York City because of the high prevailing wages. This is the cost no one wants to talk about.

Good! Living in NYC costs more than living just about anywhere in the USA. Well over 25% more than where I live, a top 50 metro.

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