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Hire people who aren’t proven

leonardofed.io

431–440 of 460 posts

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#431

> 1. Can this candidate do the job? I'd go so far as to ask: "can this candidate learn to do the job?". In our recent job postings, I've started adding a specific paragraph after the desired qualifications stating more or less "if you don't tick all the boxes above but are motivated to learn and grow, please apply. We'll teach you what you need to do the job" > 2. Will this candidate be motivated? This. Even more tha…

Would you mind sending me a link to one of your job postings? I'm a mechanical engineering graduate looking to pivot into a CS career. My temp email: stadumajoc@memeil.top Thanks!

Hello, as I replied in the thread above I'm based in France, so the job postings are in French. However if I have a bit of time I'll put up an English translation as well.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#432
On the actual job ad, and how it sounds, I like to cite:

https://tudorbarbu.ninja/message-to-recruiters/

>We’re looking for a person with more than 100 years of experience in software development, coding everything from BIOSes to cloud applications, knowledge of all past, present and future operating systems and setting up secure networks. The applicant must also be able to juggle up to twenty balls and read hieroglyphs, be fluent in Swahili and dance like Michael Jackson (especially moonwalking – nice to have at corporate Christmas parties).

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#433
post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

I agree with you, but how do you define 'cares'? How do you identify if a candidate for a job at your company cares or not?

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> become a doctor for the love of taking care of people that are sick and help them overcome a bad situation That’s the fantasy. And, hey, when it pops up, awesome - it’s a very energizing moment. However, most medicine has absolutely nothing to do with that day to day. The day to day is subject to Pareto’s Law. A surgeon may occasionally get to “take care of the sick,” but 80% of the time they get to do a five minut…

My parents are surgeons and considering all the stories they’d tell me growing up about the conditions they treat and the surgeries they perform I’ve got to say it always sounded like what you describe as the fantasy. They still enjoy it in their 60s. Boredom has never been an enemy they’ve faced. And I’ve thought about it and over the last decade of programming I get it. Boredom hasn’t been an enemy I’ve met. And I…

Of course they don't discuss the boring routine. When I get home, I talk about the highlight of the day/week, too - no one talks about the ubiquitous routine. But it's a job, not an episode of ER - most of it is the ubiquitous routine of jobs everywhere.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#435
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the salient bits of being a doctor have to do with the thought process going on in their head, the stresses of responsibility and decision-making, and all the considerations they weigh with each patient. It's just not an "observable" thing. Docs don't really start sharing their internal processes with you until you're in the second half of med school, and even then not commonly. From the outside, it jus…

Thank you for the eye opening insight, my significant other was accepted to med school in the states and she/we are double minded on her pursuing the field of medicine due to the dismal work life balance you mentioned, considering she has a science masters and works a 9-5 in medical research. She didn't have the undergraduate grades and did masters + high MCAT score to finally get in at 30 years old. Given the curren…

> Finally, the topic of burnout and physician abuse (lack of sleep, working overtime and being on call), is truly disgusting.

The simple truth is this: pay has been dropping like a rock, every public mention of doctors is about how much we suck, regulators and bureaucrats are telling us how to practice medicine (but we continue to carry the liability), we're given 5 minutes to see patients when we should be given 20 (and when we rush out the door, patients think it's because we don't give a shit), and and and. .

The worst of it is: everyone else has a "career" - they're allowed to worry about work/life balance, about trying to get paid for their time, about trying to build a nest egg. When physicians do that, well, medicine is a /calling/. You're not allowed to worry about paying for your kids' schooling, or paying off your debts, or etc. That stuff is for programmers and accountants; you're just working with "sick people in their worst moments," so you're not allowed to be anything but self-destructively selfless. No one is allowed to discuss physician misery (I hate the word "burnout" - those docs aren't a resource that came to the end of its useful lifespan, they're human beings in desperate misery) except when residents are throwing themselves off the roofs of hospitals. I've lost -two- friends in the last year. TWO in the last YEAR.

And the only people that pay attention to that are the residents who have to carry on and the attendings that go, "well, it was still better in my day, when residents didn't expect to sleep or ever go home. It was better for patient care continuity if their doc never went home."

Private practice is dead or dying for most specialties as well. The healthcare field is heavily concentrating into large regional networks.

I knew this all going in. So I can say to your wife what I said to myself: The only reason to become a doc is if you cannot, for the life of you, force yourself to become anything else. It has to be a fire in your goddamn marrow.

And for all that, I recommend choosing a residency in psych. They work 9-5 even in residency - call tends to be 9a-8p or 9a-11p (rather than 24-hour shifts like the rest of us) and every other weekend they tend to work 9-9 Sat and Sun. It's the lightest residency on the planet, and they still make - per hour - the same money as IM and FM. It's the best thing I've ever heard of for people that want to have work/life balance and a family. Unsurprising, as they're the ones who spend every day seeing stressors break people's minds in half.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#436
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, nothing too much out of the reach of your average teenager -- with the exception of interest/dedication to the art. My father grew up, went to school, and finished university in the 70s and 80s, in the Soviet Union, where none of those things were within the reach of an average person. He's only started programming towards the end of his physics PHD. Since moving to Canada, he's done ~20 years of program…

Of course, this question is only valid for applicants in their twenties. I don't think anyone in their right minds would expect someone in their 30s+ to be programming since they were teenagers!

But the 80's were an excellent time for kids to learn programming. I'm almost 40 and was immersed in programming the TI-99/4a, C64, Apple II, and Trash 80 for a significant part of my childhood.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the salient bits of being a doctor have to do with the thought process going on in their head, the stresses of responsibility and decision-making, and all the considerations they weigh with each patient. It's just not an "observable" thing. Docs don't really start sharing their internal processes with you until you're in the second half of med school, and even then not commonly. From the outside, it jus…

Your comments have been interesting; thank you. It remains that there are young people who understand this and still long to study arduously to be doctors, and then put in the work. It seems there is something appealing about the work that can be done, even if it’s imperfect. Is there any kind of enthusiasm you could accept as beneficial?

I don't think I said that enthusiasm was harmful, or non-beneficial.

So I want to clarify: what I said was that people who aim at medical school because "they're passionate about medicine" are mistaken. They're passionate about a fantasy of what medicine is, because you don't really know what it's like until it's there (and popular depictions of it are as unrelated to actual medicine as 1980s hackers movies are unrelated to actual programming.)

Many people are deeply hurt by the gap between fantasy and reality. They don't complain about it openly, but inside the doctor's lounge... oh yeah.

Some find a new passion, for what medicine actually is. Sometimes this is closely related to their original ideas, more often, it's only tangential. But they're on fire, and that's great.

Most just grow up, and find that they do a difficult but worthwhile job. They don't necessarily have a "passion" for it, but they appreciate the importance of what they do, and concentrate on doing it well. They work to take care of their patients, but also to avoid liability, and to earn their colleague's esteem. They're normal physicians.

I'm discussing the fact that what people think medicine is vs. what medicine is has a huuuuge gap. You can't be passionate for a thing when you've only seen its mirage. That doesn't mean enthusiasm is inherently bad. It's misplaced.

>it remains that there are young people that understand this

No, there pretty much aren't. That's rather the key point. I've never met a student, resident, or practicing doc that said, in retrospect, yeah, they had anything resembling an accurate clue about what medicine would actually be like.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#438
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cares about what though? Building simple,solid, maintainable software that does what it is supposed to? Or cares about chasing every new fad, has ten frameworks listed on their resume and is currently midway through the machine learning / blockchain hype? I care about the former, but plenty of people would see that as having little "passion". For example, I don't have any experience using NoSQL databases on my CV, be…

After programming professionally for several years now I'm always shocked to hear that people program for fun in their free time. Once I get home from work, the last thing I want to think about is writing software.

I find the programming that I do for work to be fun. I consider this one of the blessings of the career for me. Solving/reproducing bugs and deciphering other people’s code is intellectually stimulating similar to sudoku or crossword puzzles.

If I weren’t working such long hours currently, I could see myself creating a webpage or writing an app, or playing with arduino for fun. But as it is, I’m pretty much tapped at the end of the day. I don’t really have the mental energy (or solid blocks of time) to accomplish much of anything.

I could definitely see myself doing it if I were in a situation where I didn’t have to work. (If I won the lottery or I had a rich wife/parents or whatever).

I’ve been doing this for about 10 years.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#439
post #309
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cares about what though? Building simple,solid, maintainable software that does what it is supposed to? Or cares about chasing every new fad, has ten frameworks listed on their resume and is currently midway through the machine learning / blockchain hype? I care about the former, but plenty of people would see that as having little "passion". For example, I don't have any experience using NoSQL databases on my CV, be…

> Cares about what though? I guess that's the question which most commenters actually missed :-) If I had to define things I'd say that the former is actually "care" and the latter is a bit closer to "passion".

I honestly think that its closer to mindless consumerism than passion. Something to feed the addiction to novelty.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#440

Why would any company have do hire people and train them? Companies these days don't really come to a hault if they're in need of a few developers, and as the market is saturated, they can hold out indefinitely until they believe they have a "rockstar." According to my experience, a lot fewer companies than even a few years ago are in a hurry to talk to you despite them having a job posting and you having more experi…

Personally I really like Triplebyte. I'm 18 and have no professional experience other than a 3 month internship, but I was able to pass their quiz + interview and I got 3 interviews that I'm going to in a few weeks. If there wasn't some way to prove that I wasn't just a rando, then getting my foot in the door would be 10x harder.

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