Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#431

Post by Sol- » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

Endy wrote: post #389

s73v3r_ wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, no. People will see the vile toxicity right up front (it's not hidden at all there), and they'll leave in 5 minutes.

I think I understand what you're saying, but if it was so vile and so toxic, why would people keep returning to it and stay so involved? Whether you happen to like it or not, these are communities just as much as any other. I think it would be better for the human condition if, instead of dismissing them as "vile toxicity", we looked at what they're saying and what's caused them to feel a need to say it. Then again,…

Their opinions are plainly wrong by any modern standard (i.e. killing "subhumans", etc.), so there's no merit in approaching them on that front.

Though as you say, it might be necessary to understand them to prevent such extremism from spreading. But at that point it's very well worth asking if all that 'understanding' is really more effective than just banning such platforms.

Worked for Reddit, for instance. There was a study that showed that the prevalence of hate-speech was decreased after they banned the racist subreddits. Even people engaged in those communities became less extreme after you've removed their echo chamber.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#432

Post by tremon » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 11:35 AM UTC

tuxxi wrote: post #343

api wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there's an elephant in the living room nobody is seeing, and that's general loss of trust in our institutions. These kinds of ideas have more traction today than they did 20, 50, or 100 years ago because people trust their government and their public institutions less today than they did back then. IMHO a certain amount of this calling for censorship is people from those self-same institutions refusing to…

Just curious - what are the notable cases that you're referring to which burned credibility of our institutions? By "our", I assume you mean NATO countries (or even just the USA).

Off the top of my head:

- banking crisis and the complete lack of judicial redress

- the WMD lies for the second Iraq war and the lack of judicial response for the perrpetrators

- tobacco/health disinformation campaigns and the lack of judicial response

- widening income disparity and the lack of political will/power to reverse it

- climate change disinformation and the lack of any meaningful political action

- systematic tax dodging via tax havens and the lack of political response

- militarization of police

In general, the fact that for-profit companies consistently succeed in undermining the ability for society to correct them (by "financing" politicians, by disinforming the public, or by simply cheating around the regulations).

One of the reasons that the GMO and anti-vax discussions can fester on is because organizations like the EPA and the FDA are viewed as completely corrupt; the authorities simply have no credible authority left.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#433

Post by exikyut » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 11:36 AM UTC

s9w wrote: post #400

exikyut wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I don't have an account, but this blew up sufficiently enough that I only needed to click "explore" and stumbled on a repost containing a screenshot of the original post. Here you go: https://gab.ai/PNN/posts/31263515 Wow, what a sad website. I don't quite understand the mindset/vitriol/hate/anger/etc here (the reason for it or need for it) psychologically speaking. In any case I've taken my own simple screensh…

> Wow, what a sad website How is a website sad just because it offers true free speech? I think it's sad the the perception of free speech is being tainted in such a bad light. Free speech is _only_ relevant if it covers the controversial things, too.

Right, I'm referring to the implementation, not the theory/back-of-napkin goal.

I say that this particular website is full of what I would broadly/sweepingly describe as toxicity. Not 100.00% full - there are surely a few people in there that are balanced - but I have no inclination to field the noise ratio to find them; the process would be too depressing.

This is a rough description of what I mean by "sad".

I do completely agree that free speech is necessary - for things like oppressive dictatorships in foreign countries, hardware ownership versus do-not-debug laws, and broadcasting events that the mainstream media have blacklisted.

I don't think free speech is for racism, which I don't believe in in any case: we all bleed red, there's no point going rabid over an arbitrary bunch of people, since any grouping (of anything groupable) that scales large enough will net you all the "look how bad this is" statistics you could possibly want, which completely devalidates the basis of racism et al in the first place (IMO).

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#434

Post by test001only » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 11:39 AM UTC

This is a very clear example of hate speech and people in the comment section seems to unknowingly or deliberately conflating it with free speech. Free speech does not mean you call upon people to incite violence against a particular set of people.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#435

Post by jazzyjackson » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 11:40 AM UTC

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #292

anigbrowl wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, proposing that a group have more rights that they don't currently enjoy is just like saying a group should be suppressed and have their rights curtailed.

People don’t get more rights than others. All individuals get the same unalienable rights, and that is a universal truth which is self-evident.

The founders held those truths to be self-evident, but in some contexts (say , outside of educated 18th century gentry) they must be argued.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#436

Post by dsfafsdaf » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 11:40 AM UTC

xfer wrote: post #384

jewelthief91 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes them private? They're operated on the phone company's lines and by talking on their lines you're compelling them to carry certain speech. The logic that states private communication carriers have an unlimited right to ban what they want to on their networks leads to the conclusion that "private" phone calls can be censored.

> What makes them private? The law. Wire-tapping isn't legal.

Yes it is.

I mean, there's a law against it. But there is a lot of known warrent-less wire-tapping, both by govt and industry, and everyone shrugs.

And it's not even a de jure vs de facto thing, since by now a lot of the ostensibly illegal stuff has been either defended successfully in courts or buttressed by the govt.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#437

Post by s9w » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

exikyut wrote: post #433

s9w wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wow, what a sad website How is a website sad just because it offers true free speech? I think it's sad the the perception of free speech is being tainted in such a bad light. Free speech is _only_ relevant if it covers the controversial things, too.

Right, I'm referring to the implementation, not the theory/back-of-napkin goal. I say that this particular website is full of what I would broadly/sweepingly describe as toxicity. Not 100.00% full - there are surely a few people in there that are balanced - but I have no inclination to field the noise ratio to find them; the process would be too depressing. This is a rough description of what I mean by "sad". I do co…

> I don't think free speech is for racism

"Free speech without x" is not free speech.

Also you don't need to look to look as far as "oppressive dictatorships in foreign countries" for a need for free speech. Over 50 people had their homes raided in the middle of the night for criticizing the government.

edit: in Germany I meant

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#438

Post by genericid » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 11:59 AM UTC

fareesh wrote: post #165

The content here is quite disgusting, and I certainly do not defend it, but I really take issue with what is happening here in principle. Overall this is similar to a runaway effect that negligence of the environment can have. At a certain point it will be too late to solve the problem i.e. control emissions or oppose this kind of authoritarianism under different circumstances. The very means to do so will either be…

I hope this crowd knows their Joseph Goebbels.

"When our enemies say: But we used to grant you freedom of opinion -- yes, you granted it to us, that is no proof that we should do the same for you! That you gave us that just proves how stupid you are!"

(source: https://de.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels and https://www.sr-mediathek.de/index.php?seite=7&id=37143 ; translation by me)

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#439

Post by jazzyjackson » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 12:01 PM UTC

jewelthief91 wrote: post #192

jhayward wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is abstract idealism, uninformed by contact with the real world. Mobs happen. Moral panics happen. People are not at all, not at all, rational beings evaluating the logical correctness of arguments and using critical thinking to vet new ideas. The common spaces have to be policed. People with bad intent have to be dealt with not left for everyone to deal with on their own. It is entirely possible to destabilize…

Experience seems to indicate the opposite I think. The danger of niche mobs and/or terrorism is very real and scary, but losing our freedoms in order to address these perceived dangers is always far worse. For all the fear the "alt-right" has generated, exactly how many people have been come to harm because of them? They probably number in the dozens, which is a terrible tragedy but ultimately is that worth losing ou…

I would argue that the alt-right panic (as in, if I thought white genocide was a thing I'd be panicking too) + nihilist troll tactics elected Trump, which has caused much harm.

I think a world where those people were no-platformed more often might be a better world, but of course I can't know.

And getting no-platformed isn't losing rights, you can always make your own platform, it gets easier and cheaper every day.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#440

Post by gameswithgo » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 12:05 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

>A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open

Yes we all know about that theory, but what we haven seen happening in the last 10 years as the internet has become populated by the masses seems to suggest that theory is very wrong.