Live data from Hacker News

Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

431–440 of 527 posts

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maybe someone else will do it, but we need to fight them and not allow it, not just take our money and put our head in the sand" China & Russia are doing it. You can't fight them without ... fighting them.

Maybe we could spend our resources building systems that destroy drones instead of an arms race. I'm not saying there are easy answers but being defeatist is not my approach. I wonder what good we could do in this world if we really tried.

Not so much defeatist as it is being a realist about the threats facing you, and the world.

Maybe we could spend our resources building systems that destroy drones instead of an arms race.

That's just another ... weapon ;)

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#432
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? That your work will be used to kill people? I'm kind of surprised that needs spelling out.

Do you believe that having a military is evil? Serving in the military is evil?

That's an intellectually dishonest question and you know it, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#433
post #393
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of the military preserving peace is like thinking a group of horny boys will preserve virginity. The US is the most aggressive military on Earth. There's no peace in its presence.

That's a hypothesis without much backing, history shows an interventionist hyper power reduces conflict. We've seen Pax Romana, Pax Britannica, Pax Mongolica, and now Pax Americana. There could be shining utopia without military conflict in the future, but personally I'd rather not take the risk during my lifetime. Many equally matched opponents has historically resulted in brutal warfare.

Leaving aside Pax Americana to look at more settled history: none of those events were peaceful in global terms. There's a reason the general term is pax imeperia.

The Pax Romana was 200 years of relative quiet after 700 years of effectively constant war, and followed by another 200 years of war. The thing most historians stress is just how far from peaceful it was. In practice, Roman-held lands were at peace because all resisting inhabitants were already dead, and peace on the border constituted a period of slowed conquest and retrenchment. As soon as the political situation deteriorated, both domestic fighting and foreign glory-seeking resumed.

The Pax Mongolica followed what was per capita the single bloodiest war of conquest in human history, wiping out perhaps 10% of Earth's total population and killing literally every person in several nations. The conquest stopped basically thanks a succession crisis. In return? About 200 years of relative peace and good administration, before the black plague fragmented the khanate. (And if we want to get cynical? The improvements to trade and travel under super- and hyper-powers are a key vector for pandemics. It's not sheer coincidence that disease ended the khanate.)

The Pax Britannica... well, it was accomplished mostly with vicious oppression and butchering local populations until resistance stopped. In return, we got about a century of quiet empire, ending in a global war and yet another world-shaking pandemic (this time, the Spanish Flu).

The history of imperial peaces is one of temporary quietude after an empire has killed off the opposition and reached a pause in its wars of conquest. Fighting remains on the edges, and the peace usually ends in yet another bloodbath as suppressed violence is unleashed - and often as disease wipes out large portions of the empire. It's peace by comparison, not absolute quality.

(The one thing to be said for the Pax Americana is that it's been comparatively bloodless. Even across a double-dozen shadow wars and conquests, the act of conquest was vastly gentler than its predecessors - but the history of such things does not inspire hope.)

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#434
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google probably can't change that, at least not overnight. The reason Google are experiencing leaks and taking flak for this is that it's only Google that ever claimed to be a superior moral actor. Amazon and Microsoft, for all their faults, never claimed to be much more than tech companies that want to make money - the extent of Microsoft's moral ambition was "computers are good, let's put a computer in every home",…

> to point out that men and women have different interests I was nodding until this. Even if you agree with Damore, you can't pretend his argument was "men and women simply have different interests."

I've read the memo and that was in fact his argument. What do you think his argument was?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-oba... It’s not the military that is evil, it’s this particular program in the eyes of many. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24557333 Disclaimer: I am also fortunate to work at Google an…

I've often heard that civilian casualties would be higher without drones. First result on google seems to support it: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

Drones enable perpetual war. For instance, the US has been continuously launching drone strikes against its ally pakistan since 2004. I don’t think that’s even the current longest running drone conflict, but I can’t remember which one is. Yemen is probably biggest humanitarian military disaster at the moment, but that war is only in year eight.

Here is a list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mi...

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#436
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

Imagine French or Russian drones flying around remote parts of the US taking out targets that have been classified as criminal by that particular government. And then imagine your family lives in the same remote area. No one should be happy this is happening anywhere in the world.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#437
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons?

I wouldn't use the word evil, but I feel it is inappropriate, since Google is a global company. We should be more precise, it is working with the military of one specific country, and developing weapons for one specific country (U.S.).

I am also an user of Google services, which also collect my personal data to provide me with more personalized experience. Ok. But what if, hypothetically, a war will break out, and army of my country will fight against U.S. army, which is helped by Google? It just doesn't feel right.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#438

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

Google is very much on the verge of evil, but isn't there quite yet. Meaning that, as a daily paying user I'm at the stage of cognitive dissonance, but not quite at the point of walking.

But over the past few days I have given myself a long-term life-goal:

One day I will delete my Google Account.

I will try and make all decision in accordance with this. I already don't have a Google (or Apple) phone, I use my own domain name for email. But there are so many tiny little ways you could lock yourself in (e.g. social auth into a valuable website).

It's a big step to pull the plug and expunge Google from your life. But avoiding taking steps in the wrong direction at least buys you some time.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its a wedding where a large number of key figures will be then its arguable. Somehow I see that as far more rational outcome than a meeting of key figures in a nursery or a schoolyard unless you're going to war against babes or schoolchildren which suggests you have bigger problems. Introducing the school/nursery begs the question though: > If someone surrounds themselves with children 24/7 but commands an army or…

>> Its easy to argue your point when your the scales are even and between completely non-civilian and professional armies but when those lines are blurred your position makes one completely incapable of action. I don't disagree. The current situation is that we're trying to find a balance between the perceived necessity of warfare and the undeniable horror of the consequences of it to civilian populations. It's absur…

> The obvious solution would be to not accept the necessity of warfare anymore. But I guess, we're very far from that.

One could argue that conflict is a consequence of human behaviour so I don't see that ever being a likely outcome. Nice to see we can somewhat agree. I just feel that coming down hard on either side is missing out on discussing the detail.

I don't see the conflict in Yemen as just but at the same time I feel like countries should have the freedom to declare war on neighbouring countries, especially given an uprising.

Sure, between the lines the Saudi Kingdom is trying to retain its puppet government but this is what we get from having allies that we don't see eye-to-eye with.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth I also worked for Google for many years. And I'm hardly a shrinking liberal violet. I think it was stupid to fire Damore. But the mental gymnastics on display in this thread are depressing. Is helping the U.S. military consistent with doing good things for the world? Google has always been a global company with most of its users and employees outside of the USA. You can't even stop yourself talkin…

> and Afghanistan is hardly a country to begin with, neither country has ever posed a military threat to the USA. I hate to call out the elephant in the room, but there are about 9,000 people who might disagree with you---3,000 we'd have to assume, because they are dead. Nation-states don't have the excuse of "We're barely a country" when their territory can be used to launch an asymmetric attack by private terrorist…

9/11 was not a military attack, it was a terrorist attack, and terrorism is a law enforcement problem. As evidenced by the fact that the USA has been killing 'terrorists' in Afghanistan and Pakistan for nearly 20 years now and yet there are still regular Islamic terrorist attacks in Europe.
Post reply on HN