US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data • Hacker News Board

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#431

Post by newnewpdro » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:06 PM UTC

newnewpdro wrote: post #297

mindcrime wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it cause "great harm" for private businesses to have access to this? I'm not sure sure. After all, there is a qualitative difference between the State, which employs men with guns and arrogates to itself the right to use force to impose its will on people, the right to jail people, etc. If Starbucks knows my location, they can send me a coupon if I enter a Dunkin' Donuts store. If the State knows my location the…

It doesn't really matter, if a business has the data and the state wants it, the state gets access to the data via the business. The division is so trivially violated it's pretty much irrelevant.

Securus is in the news today [1], an excellent example of how irrelevant it is that the private sector vs. the government is performing the surveillance. It's just information, information knows no boundaries.

But those largely cosmetic boundaries certainly play a large role in public perception and acceptance of living in a surveillance state.

[1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gykgv9/securus-ph...

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#432

Post by OrganicMSG » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:06 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #412

OrganicMSG wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If people were deeply individually concerned about the risks vs. rewards of these technologies, they'd stop using them." Why do you think that? It clearly doesn't apply to stuff like oil, for instance. I could give up my phone, but I would be in deep shit if I did it tomorrow. It would take a lot of arrangement to do so and it would piss off my family and lose me work.

Actually, I'd argue that it does apply to stuff like oil. People say they're concerned. But the actual number of people attempting to zero the amount of oil they use? Much lower than claimed concern. Words are easy. Actions have costs that people would prefer not to take on.

>the actual number of people attempting to zero the amount of oil they use? Much lower than claimed concern.

How do you know how many there are? Anyone doing that couldn't travel except by foot, buy any commercial products or use any available communication services.

edit - alternatively, there are loads of people attempting to zero the amount of oil they use. They are just using oil to get there.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#433

Post by zhengyi13 » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:10 PM UTC

raesene9 wrote: post #279

tzs wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your approach starts off by making the very politicians that you want to help you extremely pissed off at you. More effective would be to track a few key politicians, such as those on the committees that would deal with regulating these things, and also a few reporters who have agreed beforehand to participate. Then the tracking on the politicians is turned over to the politicians, but NOT made public. The reporters…

Expose's by investigative Journalists have often made politicians angry, but they have also effected change. My idea is based on the fact that in my experience people rarely really care about privacy until it personally affects them.

Note for example Feinstein's reactions to domestic spying generally, and then spying on her specifically.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#434

Post by emodendroket » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

rectang wrote: post #346

emodendroket wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The individual citizen has practically no power against large institutional actors.

That's like saying voting is pointless because individual votes don't matter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_voting

All voting can do is steer the course of the government, which you've just cast as nothing more than a villain.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#435

Post by rectang » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:22 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #434

rectang wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying voting is pointless because individual votes don't matter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_voting

All voting can do is steer the course of the government, which you've just cast as nothing more than a villain.

Since I said that government brings "innumerable benefits to humanity", and you've characterized that as "nothing more than a villain", I think we're done with this thread.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#436

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #230

stef25 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for their own purposes Such as? If this also happens in the EU and is as blatant as you say it is and with GDPR and all, surely this is just waiting to blow up?

Parralel construction. You pull the phone location records of everyone near a protest without a warrant (and no intention of using the location data in court) then you dig into them to find something unrelated to the protest you can nail them on. That way you take out key players without it looking like a political crackdown.

That assumes use by a malicious government, but what was described above was illegal use by private entities.

I'm pretty sure that in Germany, some of the described activities could be punished with prison time (and they certainly should).

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#437

Post by yborg » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:30 PM UTC

Qwertie wrote: post #35

The worst part is there isn't any possible way I know of to defend yourself against this other than not having a phone.

That probably won't do much for you in many urban areas in many countries. Municipalities are routinely maintaining data captured from license-plate scanners and some cities now have CCTV networks with facial recognition software. So unless you don't drive and walk around with a new rubber mask on every day you are still subject to the panopticon.

Most businesses these days have some kind of camera system for security, it won't be too long now before someone starts buying these video feeds from say Starbucks, etc. running recognition AI on them, tagging individuals, and selling this aggregated location data, maybe even realtime. At the moment, I don't think this would even violate any privacy laws.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#438

Post by mohaine » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

8_hours_ago wrote: post #351

I believe the relevant T-Mobile privacy policy (that I definitely read before signing up...) is: "With your consent. We may provide location-based services or provide third parties with access to your approximate location to provide services to you." https://www.t-mobile.com/company/website/privacypolicy.aspx That is why a text message confirmation is required to get a cell phone's location from https://www.locations…

Well, the locationsmart fails completely on my Google fi phone.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#439

Post by cpeterso » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

metalliqaz wrote: post #278

rinze wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A while ago I thought of a very neat 'future job': you walk around town with somebody else's phone. So if you 'need to be' somewhere, you just hire this service, deliver your phone, which will be returned to you, and there goes your track record.

yeah but... then the customer doesn't have their phone I need my phone, especially when I'm out

Use a drone to fly your primary phone to the location and relay the call to your secondary phone on your person.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#440

Post by hanbura » Wed, May 16, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #262

Mononokay wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel guilt over creating them?

Should they? The vast quantity of users find it incredibly useful and have no reason to be concerned about governments or third parties being able to determine their geographic location, because governments or third parties don't generally care.

>have no reason to be concerned about governments ...

Many aren't, but everyone has reason to.

Governments change. Telling your government your religion in 1920s Germany was harmless, in 1940 many would have preferred if the government didn't have their religion on file.

Circumstances change to. In 1920 being a Japanese in the US wasn't special. After Perl Harbor came the internment camps.

And then there's the mundane stuff. You protest a government policy, someone in the government takes issue and tries to put some of these annoying people in jail.

Given that you don't know when you might become an enemy of the state it's always a good idea to keep the power of the state over its citizens in check.