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Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

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Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#431

Post by dieterrams »

codingdave wrote: post #211
phaedrus wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once got knocked out of the running by a whiteboard-coding interview question that went something like "How would you find all triples from a list of a million integers, where the first two numbers add up to the third?" I said, "Hmmm that sounds like an O(N^3) problem." Interviewer: "Can you think of any way to do it in smaller big-O?" Me: "Not off the top of my head, no." For some reason that company insisted on o…

>"Not off the top of my head, no." They were probably looking for the answer of, "Lets talk through it and figure out a better answer". Coders are often under a mistaken impression that interviewers care about your answer. They don't. They care about how you approach it, how you think through it, what you do when challenged, etc. So from their perspective, they asked you to try harder on a problem, and you just said,…

> Coders are often under a mistaken impression that interviewers care about your answer. They don't. They care about how you approach it, how you think through it, what you do when challenged, etc.

This isn't always true. Some interviews are really about solving the problems as fast as possible. And lots of interviewers are looking for exactly the answer they have on hand, and will think you're doing it wrong if you come up with a different, but equally valid (or better!) solution.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#432

Post by leongrande »

jcadam wrote: post #274
phaedrus wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once got knocked out of the running by a whiteboard-coding interview question that went something like "How would you find all triples from a list of a million integers, where the first two numbers add up to the third?" I said, "Hmmm that sounds like an O(N^3) problem." Interviewer: "Can you think of any way to do it in smaller big-O?" Me: "Not off the top of my head, no." For some reason that company insisted on o…

Had the same thing happen to me. Simple problem: find out if two strings are anagrams of each other. My immediate solution: Sort the two strings and then compare them: (defn anagrams? [x y] (= (sort x) (sort y))) or some such. I was fortunate in that they didn't make me implement the sort (because it's been a long time for me) :) "Ok, what's the efficiency of that solution?" "Well, assuming the library sort functions…

You need not to sort the strings. Create a vector with indices he ascii codes, incrementing for the first string and decrementing the count for the second, and keep a count of the number of chars, if you get a negative number exit false, else if the count of chars is zero then each one is an anagram of the other. (n+m+128) operations n and m are the length of both strings and 128 for creating the vector

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#433

Post by eanzenberg »

cortesoft wrote: post #368
tkxxx7 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear the opposite. They are stressing a technical opinion here, but for the sake of rationality and efficiency. These are usually not the same people that are overly concerned with "correctness" when communicating with others.

But it is only 'rational and efficient' if you are being obtuse... they aren't asking you to code a CSV parser because they actually need a CSV parser, they are asking because they want to see you code. The 'rational' thing to do is satisfy THAT requirement, which is the real one, not try to bypass the purpose by insisting on using a CSV library. The ability to understand the underlying need behind a request is impor…

I'll argue that a one-liner IS code. That's what I put into production systems.

I understood the "purpose" of the question and I self-selected myself out of a role I would've been bored, micromanaged at, and probably not challenged at.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#434

Post by funkdobiest »

Wow, This really hits home. Senior Engineer here currently seeking a job. I had a really interesting test project - https://gist.github.com/cmerrick/d0d8812f1c31e625adfd3333263... that was given after the first interview. I liked it way better than a test. I will say the majority of interviews have been fairly high level when discussing prior work and projects. Hopefully it will happen soon.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#435

Post by eanzenberg »

calcifer wrote: post #131
eanzenberg wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do you need to write palindrome functions for your job? Checking substring in a string is a 1 liner in languages like python. I was at a final interview with FAANG. One question asked was to load a csv. I used pandas, it's a 1 liner. You could see the wretched face of the interviewer since he was expecting a with open() as f: do_some_shit and kept pushing me to write this on the board. I looked at him and s…

> How often do you need to write palindrome functions for your job? That's like answering "how often do you need math?" to the question "what is 2+3?". It is an utterly, completely, stunningly trivial question that even a CS101 student on their first semester should be able to answer. > used pandas, it's a 1 liner. You could see the wretched face of the interviewer since he was expecting a with open() as f: do_some_s…

I don't consider palindromes equivalent to math. Unless you mean how to index lists? That would be a valid question since there's different ways in python.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#436

Post by eanzenberg »

GuB-42 wrote: post #347
eanzenberg wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do you need to write palindrome functions for your job? Checking substring in a string is a 1 liner in languages like python. I was at a final interview with FAANG. One question asked was to load a csv. I used pandas, it's a 1 liner. You could see the wretched face of the interviewer since he was expecting a with open() as f: do_some_shit and kept pushing me to write this on the board. I looked at him and s…

Why write your own method? Because it is sometimes better to write 10 lines of your own code rather than pull an entire library for some trivial task. Creating a dependency to a library is not benign. Even if the library is easily available and mature doesn't mean that everyone has it, or that it will never change. Remember how "leftpad" broke npm? Having that smug attitude towards the recruiter, assuming he is an ex…

I don't agree with this reasoning. Perhaps the details are important. The task required loading, filtering, and aggregating a csv. Sure, if all do is "load" a csv perhaps you don't need to import a huge library. But if you want to do anything with that data I'm sure the library becomes very useful :)

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#437

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ryandrake wrote: post #82
crdoconnor wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird, I've heard plenty of stories about this kind of thing but when I sat on the hiring side and interviewed for intermediate roles (couldn't even afford senior) I didn't come across anybody who was stumped and simply couldn't code. There were people who were bad at (possibly some because they were under pressure), it but nobody who couldn't do it at all. I wasn't giving out a trivial question either.

It's such a weird hiring market. 1. There are a lot of imposters out there applying for programming jobs who can't program, and 2. There are a lot of very talented programmers out there who are being rejected by overly picky companies. Both can be true, and I'd argue that both are true. I don't know what the solution is. Current interviewing methods don't seem to be solving the problem. I'd suggest a widely-accepted…

That might solve half of the problem. But then we need certifications for employers - something that says, "Yes, I have a real job opening; I'm not just wasting your time." It needs to have real penalties if an employer violates it, too.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#438

Post by AnimalMuppet »

nugator wrote: post #242
hermitdev wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember interviewing a candidate that didnt even know what a binary tree was (context was big-O complexity of algorithms). That interview was really bad. Left the candidate in tears (which was not intended, but I think of their realization they werent going to get the job), and me annoyed at the waste of my time (should have been caught in phone screen instead of on site).

Was it necessary to know on the top of your head without Googling what a binary tree is for the position the candidate applied for? I've been a developer for 12 years and I've never had the use for that. Computer science is a VERY large field and being good at everything is impossible. Asking the right questions at interviews are crucial for finding the right people. If a candidate for a programming job knows binary…

I've been a developer for 30 years, and I haven't ever had a need for it, either - but I still know what one is. I expect that you do, too.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#439

Post by twodave »

Clubber wrote: post #369
twodave wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is everyone looks like an imposter until you watch them code.

I don't mean this the way it sounds, but if you can't tell if someone is an imposter by talking shop with them in your chosen profession , you probably shouldn't be doing the interviewing.

I think unless you're prideful enough to believe you can identify someone's level of productivity from a short conversation, it's probably better to see the proof. Again, why would I settle for a conversation when I can ask for first-hand proof? It's like a judge dismissing concrete evidence and just basing their verdict on the circumstantial. Sure, it's likely to be right most of the time, but what about when it isn't?

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#440

Post by amorphid »

erikb wrote: post #429

Can't fully agree in quite a few points. I understand how the author got that feeling tho. Doing interviews is always eating away at one's confidence, no matter who you are. 1. no one believes anyone can actually code - I experience quite the opposite. People expect others to be able to code just because they are currently employed as software developer. That's not true at all. Sooo many people can't. 2. Coding inter…

>> 1. no one believes anyone can actually code - I experience quite the opposite. People expect others to be able to code just because they are currently employed as software developer. That's not true at all. Sooo many people can't.

It's fair to assess someone's ability to code. It's also fair to for the interviewee to expect the interviewer to demonstrate an ability to review code.

>> 2. Coding interviews are not about findign the solution but about showing some skills, showing how you handle things under pressure, your ability to explain what you do etc.

Until I have something better to go on, I assume the interview process is a good proxy for what it'd be like to work with you. If I think you're hazing me, even if I 100% ace your interview, I simply won't want to work with you.

>> PS: One side note. A senior coding position might feel age discriminatory because senior is for talented ~28 year olds to mediocre ~40 year olds. A 50 year old should be architect/manager or not switch jobs.

Is that a serious comment?

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