Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts • Hacker News Board

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#431

Post by jnbiche » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 3:22 AM UTC

macintux wrote: post #256

0xfeba wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how this didn't raise red flags from legal/HR. From the article: > In a statement, Google said [...] it has a "clear policy to hire candidates based on their merit, not their identity. At the same time, we unapologetically try to find a diverse pool of qualified candidates for open roles[...]" You can't have it both ways. You're either based solely on merit, or on merit and how non-male and non-whi…

Good luck defining and hiring purely on merit. Good luck separating merit from unconscious biases related to where you've seen merit previously. And typically most of what you've seen previously is people like you. I've seen plenty of excellent computer engineers who started out as physics majors, or astronomers, or music majors...but they were universally white men (mostly because I've only ever been around white me…

> If a black woman came to me with a background in East Asian linguistics, would I naturally associate her with the success stories I've seen, or would I think she's unqualified and needs to get more experience elsewhere? > I suspect the latter.

Really? And you would not think that of a white candidate?

Frankly, I would be intrigued by anyone with a background in East Asian linguistics who taught themselves programming, and would be very careful not to quickly discount them.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#432

Post by jnbiche » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 3:26 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #427

beingrealistic wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you think the push to hire more women is the reason for the current gender balance in law hiring rather than a simple increase in the number of women choosing to pursue legal qualifications? there is a huge push to hire more women in tech yet it has done little so far to change the balance. there is certainly no hard barrier on women pursuing a tech career as there was for women pursuing a career in corporate…

There hasn’t been a huge push. What law firms did in the 1980s and 1990s was basically decide “we’re going to hire an equal number of men and women.” Eventually, women came to see law as a career women could pursue because there were lots of women in the profession. There were other women to be mentors and role models and friends. Eventually, the need for affirmative measures evaporated. Having done both, I just find…

> There hasn’t been a huge push. What law firms did in the 1980s and 1990s was basically decide “we’re going to hire an equal number of men and women.”

If this is true, then there must have been a lot of women coming out of law schools in the 1980s and 1990s. Otherwise, law firms in general could never hire and equal number of men and women. It's statistically impossible.

Whereas there are only a very small percentage (<10%) of women now graduating with CS and software engineering majors.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#433

Post by dlwdlw » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 5:27 AM UTC

colmvp wrote: post #126

I have to say, as an Asian male I found this comment by dirtyid in the article to be succinct and all too true: > "Pour one out for Asian males. Get screwed by affirmative action in education, media representation and now employment but can't get screwed on dating apps." Asian men constantly get grouped as a single entity when it comes to tech and aren't considered an added element of diverseness within the industry…

Yep. Two former world powers each making up 20% of the world , India and China, are grouped together as "Asian" in the US

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#434

Post by killjoywashere » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 5:45 AM UTC

No less a bastion of conservative lust than the US Military actively pursues diversity in promotion and selection processes. While it makes my own life a little harder, I can't disagree with the motivation. And, quite frankly, it's not the minorities internally pushing this. It's saltine-white leadership over-ruling minorities in management positions and demanding they find even the most marginally qualified minority candidates. I have heard a senior black woman say "I can't in good conscience recommend any of the available candidates" only to hear the senior member say "I totally understand, but the slate as it stands is completely white. I, the institution, cannot accept that. This will face public scrutiny. Of the options, who's the most qualified? Of the white slate, who can we most easily replace?"

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#435

Post by PKop » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 6:13 AM UTC

sol_remmy wrote: post #340

throwaway1584 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I expect actions like this from people holding the prevailing viewpoints in Silicon Valley whenever someone with a different viewpoint dare speak.

Do you know of an uncensored forum that is better for discussing these issues? Is Slashdot better?

Gab.ai at the moment is the least censored social network to discuss this issue.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#436

Post by throwaway1584 » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 7:12 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #426

throwaway1584 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are screenshots in the suits of concrete messages from people claiming they do each of these actions. At this point the question seems mostly to be about if this is systematic or just individual actions.

> There are screenshots in the suits of concrete messages from people claiming they do each of these actions Screenshots, without evidence of provenance, of anyone saying anything are trivial to create; they aren't evidence just part of the accusations.

There is a lot of smoke for there to be no fire. However, who knows. Personally I have seen the same behavior where I work so I am not surprised if this is all true.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#437

Post by throwaway1584 » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 7:37 AM UTC

grzm wrote: post #414

throwaway1584 wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s very reasonable. Maybe there are new functionality that can be implemented to at least bring back to the frontpage flagged articles of interest to the majority? I think there needs to be a punishment function for ideologically motivated flagging and maybe even other actions done by such a minority, so that it cause the articles to stay on the frontpage longer when brought back in order to dissuade the behavior…

There's already such functionality, for both of the things you mention: emailing the mods to bring it to their attention. The mods have been known to disable flags for submissions. That said, bringing up again "ideologically motivated flagging" ignores other reasons people may be flagging, such as the belief that such discussions aren't constructive on HN, independent of one's ideological or political position. And t…

> Do you think HN as it is now is the place to constructively have these discussions?

I see your point about the fitness of a platform for challenging the prevailing viewpoints in Silicon Valley, and for making sure that people can develop rapport and reputation that makes them accountable. Those are all great points.

We would agree fully if HN banned all articles on contentious topics or unapologetically allowed all viewpoints with all the mess that brings.

Where I think we differ is what the right action is when highlighting a viewpoint that cause social dissonance. My opinion is that giving the stage only to people that shout the loudest when opposing viewpoints speak is a terrible choice, as in general the most extreme people are the loudest and I doubt those represent the majority. We gave the stage to the extremes in communism and fascism, and it didn't end so well. We do not need to repeat that experiment again.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#438

Post by throwaway1584 » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 7:53 AM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #400

throwaway1584 wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN policy states that topics should be relevant to tech and startups. This topic in particular clearly is and also garnered a lot of interest. Arguably a majority might actually be interested in discussing this topic as they might be perceived as a majority and be potential targets of this kind of discrimination. When an ideologically possessed social justice minority then in violation of HN policy and the interest o…

You sound exactly like the "ideologically possessed social justice minority" you're castigating. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14946450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14682604

The difference is that I believe in a sense of justice and recourse, and that is something social justice warriors do not believe in for their actions. I also believe that evidence can prove me wrong, which is clearly outside the realm of social justice warriors. I continue to seek out evidence when forming my opinions, and do not form ideas uncritically in my head.

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#439

Post by richmarr » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 3:56 PM UTC

novembermike wrote: post #189

richmarr wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it diminishes the accomplishments of genuinely great minority/female employees to have this policy. This view is contradicted by the weight of evidence for unconscious bias in hiring. [Edit] Although obviously I don't know exactly what their policy was... maybe they were hiring badly, but the evidence suggests that people (of both sexes) discount the abilities of people in gender-incongruous roles. > I woul…

A lot of the unconscious bias studies are failing to replicate.

Care to support that a little? Not aware that there have been many attempts at direct replication

Re: Ex-Google recruiter: I was fired because I resisted “illegal” diversity efforts

#440

Post by dang » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

throwaway1584 wrote: post #350

to3m wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awesome, thanks - I just got bingo! I don't know if you're aware but articles can move off the front page because people (like me) flag them (as I did). If enough people flag it, off it goes. Sometimes the article sticks around, and obviously mine was a minority voice. Sometimes it disappears, probably because, I expect, most people are like me: we've seen this stuff discussed before, and the discussions are, on aver…

So what you are saying is that you are the kind of person that would have send people to the Gulag for having a different viewpoint. Good job. I am sure this feels pleasant as long as your viewpoint is in power. Tyrannies rarely stay that way though, so good luck.

We've banned this account for egregiously breaking the site guidelines.

It's pretty rich to go on about censorship and then pull a move like this. If we don't ban you, then comments like yours destroy the site, but if we do, you can do the "help help did you see he just repressed me" bit from Monty Python.