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Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#431

Post by intended »

simias wrote: post #231
RyanZAG wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN isn't all that different, so it's probably about more than just reddit. For example, you can post the same remarks criticizing functional programming in a post about C# or Java and get upvotes, while the same post in a Haskell discussion will be downvoted. You can try the experiment yourself to verify it. This applies to companies as well - you will be upvoted for pro-Microsoft or anti-Google posts in a news topic…

It's significantly better in my experience. It's not perfect but you can actually have a plurality of opinions on a subject. I think the fact that the community is tighter and that low karma accounts can't actually downvote help massively. Also no visible scores which reduces the "gaming" aspect. I kind of wish HN would go a little further still and ration downvotes for everybody, it shouldn't be something you throw…

The community is smaller, the barrier to finding the place are higher.

There are several factors that ensure better Signal to Noise ratios in communities.

Protective Moats, specific technical subject matter, for example.

Essentially it boils down to difficulty to engage, or non trivial effort required to engage.

The factors you mentioned have little impact on the behavior of the sub, which is mostly influenced by the people and norms of behavior, over the UI.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#432

Post by lrem »

errantblaze wrote: post #352
lrem wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries provide free (you don't even have to buy overpriced books or any other scam) education on all levels (including PhD). Even the middling ones like Poland. You simply estimate your rough requirements for different specialties and fund that many students. Admissions can become somewhat cutthroat (50 applicants per slot are not unheard of), but that only works for the better.

Would you say that this is generally the type of model people are campaigning for in the U.S. when "free college" is mentioned? Years ago, I had initially assumed people were applying that phrase the to the current U.S. model, where almost anyone can get into somewhere, as long as they can pay (not just tuition, but living expenses and time as well), with some programs being very easy, and they wanted all of that cov…

I'm not familiar with the sentiments on the other side of the pond. But what you outline boils down to absolutely no requirements. If your government would also provide students with free/subsidized housing and food, you'd quickly see unsustainable numbers of students.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#433

Post by VeronicaJJ123 »

jedberg wrote: post #170
ConceptJunkie wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income tax covers way more than education.

Exactly, which is why this would be a special additional tax that is just for college graduates and just goes back to the colleges.

Not sure why you are downvoted but this makes sense. If you want free education then you must promise to pay for it in future rest of your life.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#434

Post by VeronicaJJ123 »

ahoka wrote: post #186
jedberg wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, which is why this would be a special additional tax that is just for college graduates and just goes back to the colleges.

Also a special tax for sick people?

Heard of health insurance ?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#435

Post by Bartweiss »

davewritescode wrote: post #371
Bartweiss wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, but isn't that also the "problem" with subsidizing K-12 public school? Eh, 9-12 public school maybe. The dirty not-a-secret of K-8 is that it's effectively state-sponsored daycare as well as an educational system, so its role as a holding pen is a feature rather than a bug.

Maybe where you grew up but that’s not what you’ll find in states/districts that take education seriously. 8th graders in the northeast are generally able to read at an adult level and understand basic arithmetic including algebra and geometry. I don’t know if you understand how difficult it is to teach 12 year olds but that’s a miracle not daycare.

This is the second version of this reaction I got, so I think I made my point wrong.

I don't mean at all to say "it's not education". I did get educated in a northeastern public schools, I had a lot of excellent teachers who worked incredibly hard and committed their free time and money to education.

My point is that K-8 public schools are both source of education and - intentionally, explicitly - daycare alternatives. Not "school is useless, it's a holding pen", but "schools intentionally provide non-educational support for parents including childcare".

My public school had full-day kindergarten that was about 70% recess. When budget cuts hit, there was a public discussion of whether to go to half-day kindergarten, and the two sides were "it'll save money" and "parents will have to pay for childcare". My district had after-school activities with no real educational value to help keep kids occupied until ~4PM, and then another hour of unstructured study hall after that. The formal purpose of the thing was to provide a place for kids who didn't go to daycare or go home alone.

I don't even think this is a bad thing! The parent comments suggested "free college is a vacation" and "well by that light, so is K-12 education". My point was that children don't take vacations, and the daycare role of primary schooling is a benefit, not a hazard.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#436

Post by godelski »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #330
Raidion wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That punishes everyone who took out private loans or worked to put themselves through college. Not to mention it hurts those who worked to pay down their loans earlier. There are a lot of ways of socializing the cost of education, doing it retroactively opens up a whole can of worms.

No. It doesn't punish those people who paid earlier because those people fare no differently in the world where we don't retroactively forgive loans and in the world where we do retroactively forgive loans. It doesn't benefit them either but unfortunately this is a society level problem, we need to move beyond individual level thinking to solve it.

I'd also like to point out that the later people went to school, the more they paid. On average, at least. The burden that debt brings is becoming more and more as time marches on and we don't fix this problem.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#437

Post by Chris_Jay »

Retric wrote: post #387
weeksie wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find people who say things like this don't understand the great amount of good that elementary education provides. Basic literacy and mathematics skills are tough things to teach effectively. They're not at all difficult to provide if you have the time and resources to spend on your child, but many people do not (have the inclination or the time). Bad idea to punish the children of those people for their parents' d…

I was homeschooled from 4th to 8th grade and doing a few hours a day of work I still finished by Christmas. By comparison most classses never seemed to finish their textbooks. Going back for high school felt almost painfully slow. I don't think kids need to be crammed with as much information as possible, but you could probably double the content without leaving most people behind.

I agree, but only if everyone is motivated to be an active participant - looking back on my own high school days, the kids who had trouble mostly had no incentive to be there.

It's probably utopian, but I still think a lot of problems could be solved by paying kids for marks. There are lots of arguments made about intrinsic motivation to learn being enough, but learning is also difficult and uncomfortable. Some extrinsic motivation to develop a functional learning style might be exactly what those currently underachieving are missing.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#438

Post by ionised »

InitialLastName wrote: post #42
danaliv wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some (many?) would like to see a government funded system Depending on how the debt situation falls out, we might already have that. :-\

You're being sardonic, but socialism-by-bailout seems like an interesting experiment. Next, we automatically bail out everyone with medical debt -> universal healthcare!

We already had that when the banks were bailed out.

Socialise the losses, privatise the profits.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#439

Post by throwawayjava »

WWLink wrote: post #407
throwawayjava wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These discussions often become "either/or", ignoring the possibility of studying STEM and other pre-professional fields while also receiving a thorough introduction to the humanities. You can study Computer Science while also learning a bit of art history, or architecture, or psychology, or the sciences, or business, or... And doing so might even make you more valuable to your employer, to yourself/your family, and t…

Having a computer science degree does not guarantee gainful employment.

Nothing guarantees gainful employment.

So what?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#440

Post by throwawayjava »

hfourm wrote: post #39
jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

Truthfully, depending on your definition of majority, most college students ARE already pursuing more profitable majors. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_322.10.a... The "underwater basketweaving" so to say, may be at most 10-15% of current college graduates. I think the solution lies more with reducing the cost of college, open source textbooks, more elearning, etc. Regardless of government fundin…

> The "underwater basketweaving" so to say, may be at most 10-15% of current college graduates.

What percentage of mortgages went into foreclosure in 2008? One source I found said 1/54.

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