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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

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Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#431

Post by Meekro »

jacquesm wrote: post #393
davidreiss wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and to be an unwilling vehicle for the Neo Nazi movement is something that no company should want to aspire to. Does that also apply to pornography? What about atheism? What about lgbt content? The concerted effort by the pro-censorship crowd to exploit nazis to promote censorship is rather worrying.

The concerted effort to equate Neo Nazis to pornographers, atheists and lgbt people is rather worrying as well. If you can't see the difference between those groups then the problem is on your end. Hint: Neo Nazis wish to return to the good old days of 1939 or so where Jews and people of color are either dead, outcast, deported, enslaved or stuck in camps while white men rule the land as is their god given right. So…

I don't think grandparent was equating them, but rather pointing out that someone in a position of power could one day equate them. If the rule is going to be "your website only exists if one of a handful of powerful people don't veto its existence," then you have to worry that one of those powerful people would someday decide that LGBT advocacy turns his stomach in the same way that Daily Stormer pissed off Matthew Prince.

If, on the other hand, the rule is "your website exists as long as the courts don't decide otherwise," then both LGBT sites and Nazi sites are safer.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#432

Post by [deleted] »

njarboe wrote: post #408
PeanutCurry wrote: post #341

I'm obviously being a bit facetious when I say this, but are there really few things worse than nazis? I'm not expert on the subject of neo-nazis or the nazi movement, so maybe this seems more complex because of my position of ignorance. But none of the statistics seem to imply that nazis are more than simply intellectually repulsive and socially disgusting. That's not to say that nazi affiliated groups never commit…

Scott Alexander has a good article relating to this issue and Trump[1]. [1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wo...

[deleted]

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#433

Post by urbanj »

genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

Fuck off Nazi apologist

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#434

Post by vaishaksuresh »

genon wrote: post #402
vaishaksuresh wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't wanna sell cakes to gay people or host pro-Nazi sites? Don't start a business serving the public then. I get what you’re saying and agree with you, but please don’t compare gay people and neo-nazi. They’re not same or even similar.

If you get what I'm saying - comparing two well-known instances from different parts of the political spectrum where businesses try and refuse custom for ideological reasons - why are you pretending I'm comparing gay people to neo-Nazis?

Because you choose to be a neo nazi, you don’t choose to be gay. I’m not talking about denying service. I’m saying one of them did not choose to be what they are.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#435

Post by mindcrime »

mindcrime wrote: post #139
jquery wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing free speech with the first amendment. Free speech is a cultural value says that controversial speech shouldn't be censored, rather it should be debated, condemned, or ignored. The first amendment guarantees the government will uphold this value. You are perfectly correct that private companies can throw the value of free speech in the dumpster if the CEO wakes up in a bad mood.

The first amendment guarantees the government will uphold this value. More like "The first amendment purports to guarantee that the government will uphold this value."

OK, I'm usually the last to complain about downvoting, but this is ridiculous. That our government routinely fails to uphold the principle of free speech is not even remotely a controversial position... so perhaps some of you folks would like to explain what your argument is?

Remember, a "first amendment" in and of itself has absolutely zero power to guarantee anything. Our government violates many of the provisions of the Constitution on a daily basis. "Free speech zones" anybody? Warrantless wiretapping? Civil asset forfeiture? Etc, etc., etc.

At the end of the day, the old line "the Constitution is just a piece of paper" really is true. It's actually down to us, "We The People" to hold our government accountable and make sure it upholds the principles we value. We can't just abdicate our responsibility and say "Oh, it's in the 1st amendment, so I'm sure they'll do the right thing."

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#436

Post by urbanj »

genon wrote: post #402
vaishaksuresh wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't wanna sell cakes to gay people or host pro-Nazi sites? Don't start a business serving the public then. I get what you’re saying and agree with you, but please don’t compare gay people and neo-nazi. They’re not same or even similar.

If you get what I'm saying - comparing two well-known instances from different parts of the political spectrum where businesses try and refuse custom for ideological reasons - why are you pretending I'm comparing gay people to neo-Nazis?

Because you are

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#437

Post by vaishaksuresh »

Spivak wrote: post #412
vaishaksuresh wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't wanna sell cakes to gay people or host pro-Nazi sites? Don't start a business serving the public then. I get what you’re saying and agree with you, but please don’t compare gay people and neo-nazi. They’re not same or even similar.

Right, the distinction is that neo-Nazi's are bad -- hateful, intolerant, divisive, problematic or however you want to put it. I'm uncomfortable saying that it's okay to do these things to the bad guys, even when it's obvious, because in an alternate universe it might be obvious that gays marrying is hateful toward Christians and intolerant of their sacred rituals.

No. The distinction is that neo-nazis chose to follow a hateful ideology. Gay people did not choose to be gay. I’m not supporting denial of service, in fact I think nobody should be denied service. I’m just pointing out that the equivalence is not right.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#438

Post by gasof »

jackmott wrote: post #381
tuna-piano wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so bizarre. He tries to have it both ways. He says "no one should have that power", but then says he did it literally earlier that day. He says CloudFlare isn't changing their "content-neutral" policy... but clearly they did change that policy. I have many reasons to oppose nazis, including incredibly personal ones. That said, I think crossing this content line for an infrastructure company is a big deal, and I…

If you are too reasonable when evil forces are at work, they might win.

Boycott, divest and sanction Cloudflare!

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#439

Post by davemp »

jpfed wrote: post #361
davemp wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's sort of disconcerting to admit this but recent events have me reevaluating the utility of unvarnished free speech as a societal value. Very disconcerting that you and so many other people feel this way. Free speech and competition of ideas is an essential part of our society. To deny free speech is to oppress. > no recourse to the psychological and structural damage they do to our society through their dishone…

>Free speech and competition of ideas is an essential part of our society. That is the familiar way. But when lies travel faster than corrections, and bots can automate the Gish gallop, it's hard to imagine truth actually winning.

All the misinformation and crud out there is troubling, but I think we just fall victim to sampling bias. Don't let the seas of crap dissuade you from your civic duty of making sound arguments!

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#440

Post by dane-pgp »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #411
genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

False equivalence. Gay people don't choose to be gay, and gay people aren't harming others. A business can refuse to serve skateboarders, shirtless people, and other people who are being a nuisance; and it can certainly refuse to serve people who bring violence wherever they go.

If you're saying that Nazis choose to be Nazis, then could you choose to become a Nazi? I don't mean pretend to be one, or act like one, but actually believe their disgusting ideology. If you couldn't choose to do that, then presumably they didn't choose to either, and they couldn't choose to not believe their ideology. And maybe gay people could choose not to enter gay relationships, and maybe them having that ability still isn't a good reason for businesses to discriminate against them.
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