Live data from Hacker News

Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

bloomberg.com

431–440 of 1001 posts

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#431

Maybe Google fired him for being an idiot as they value smarts? Unless you're trying to get into politics, you have to be pretty dumb to publish something like this under your own name, let alone distribute it at your job . Not a big surprise.

Maybe he felt very strongly. Nobody thanked Rosa Parks when she made a big hubbub on the bus, but she believed in something, and history eventually proved her right.

Regardless of whether you agree with the author, he risked his career standing up for what he believes in.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#433
post #7

An excellent opportunity to re-read PG's essay, "What You Can't Say". [1] "What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. Dressing oddly gets you laughed at. Violating moral fashions can get you fired, ostracized, imprisoned, or even killed."…

You might want to read Slavoj Zizek on ideology, since that's a deeper philosophical look at the same phenomena. Here's the quick video of him explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk8ibrfXvpQ Basically, you might think about one thing as 'moral fashion' and another as 'social good', but you are really comparing two fashions and pretending to be objective. To make a concrete example out of the situation in f…

>if there is proof that diverse companies perform better then his reasoning about how diversity initiatives are wasteful must be incorrect.

Absolutely not true. There are many other possible reasons for such a correlation. A few examples:

It's possible better-performing companies could attract more non-white applicants.

Or, that better-performing companies could be have extra resources, which they then spend on diversity initiatives, where poor-performing companies are desperate to survive.

Or the independent variable: Being in the Valley makes companies perform better, and also makes them want to hire more non-whites, but these are both independent outcomes simply caused by being in the Valley. In this scenario, it's even possible that diversity harms performance, but the effect is more than compensated for by being in the Valley.

Or, it could be random chance; outcomes are dominated by a few high-performing companies, which just happen to be genetically diverse.

Or any of many other possible connections and confounders. This is really basic stuff.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#434

Reading the letter, what surprised me was how political it was, framing everything as a "left vs right" cultural fight. I think if it was up to me I'd probably fire anybody on either side of that debate who started circulating shit like this. As soon as you're on that level, nothing good is going to come of it and you're just going to make a lot of people angry, which is very bad for the business in a lot of differen…

The workplace is no place for politics like this.

I agree, but I'm pretty sure political posts were already tolerated at Google. If employees are allowed to post to internal message boards that women are underrepresented because interviewers are sexist or suffer from unconcious bias and should adopt policy Y, then employees should also be allowed to post an argument that women are under-represented for some other reason X and argue against policy Y.

And even if the workplace does have a no politics rule, the proper response should be a reprimand and asking him to delete his post, not a firing.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#435

This feels like the blue and black (white and gold) dress. It boggles my mind that people don't see the fundamental and toxic misogyny in this 'manifesto'. Please have a woman you care about in your life, preferably one in tech, read this and then ask their opinion of the piece. The "treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group" sentiment of the author is fine except that we have hundreds of…

> Diversity programs are not about lowering the bar

As an Asian male who once upon a time had to apply to colleges, I'd like to see some evidence for that assertion.

To be clear, I (and hopefully many other people commenting here) have no problem with outreach, anti-harrassment, and other such workplace training initiatives. It's unfortunate that we can't all achieve a baseline level of civility that abstracts away a person's biological character.

But I personally find it inflammatory to equate the concept of diversity with differences in sex and race in the first place. This tends disturbingly towards institutionalized stereotyping (e.g. "all Asians are nerdy and softspoken, so we're going to lump them into the same cohort and exert an implicit negative bias against them"). It's also particularly vacuous in that our notion of 'diversity' is thereby premised chiefly on superficial appearances - 'you look different, therefore you must be the kind of different we need'.

One would think the more equitable philosophy would be to strive towards a world in which we stop making exactly those kinds of distinctions and instead judge people on the content of their character and the value they can create.

I find it highly reductionist to conflate people challenging biased hiring practices with people challenging diversity more generally. There are likely some in the tech world who are genuinely bigoted and misogynist. I would hope, however, that a larger share are simply perplexed that hiring practices in engineering would be predicated on anything other than an assessment of raw merit.

My final point is this: as long as we continue to perpetuate diversity practices that emphasize sex and race in any way, some classes of people are going to be harmed. Sometimes that's more obvious to the Asian male who grew up in a tough part of NYC under difficult circumstances than it is to the affluent Black female who grew up in a world willing to bias opportunities unfairly in her favor (when some other less fortunate Black female really needed the leg up).

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#436

As a white man, I have concerns that my ethnic / gender group is being persecuted. How should I raise these issues for discussion, in a professional environment?

Well, I can tell you were NOT to have that discussion: publicly at work. That said, as a white man myself, I would argue very strongly that I am not being "persecuted". Synonyms for this word include: oppress, abuse, victimize, ill-treat, mistreat, maltreat, tyrannize, torment, torture; martyr. I've never felt any of the above. As a white english-speaking immigrant I've never been accosted about my status. I've never…

> Well, I can tell you were NOT to have that discussion: publicly at work.

It's clearly acceptable for other ethnicities and genders, many companies will even setup official programs for those groups, so clearly it's ok to discuss publicly at work. That leaves white and male as the only determining factors that make it unacceptable, which is obviously racist and/or sexist.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#437
Here's the writing on the wall that I think is being ignored: google has thousands of employees, with all types of opinions. I guarantee you some of those people have controversial opinions, and some of those people share those controversial opinions.

Everybody blames the author for creating a disturbance, but you can't create a disturbance without people being interested in what you say. The fact that it was so widely circulated (instead of ignored like 99% of blog posts) suggests to me that a number of people at the company feel like he had some really good points.

It's scary to me that the "safe space" crowd gets to define what views are offensive, and inherently make it an unsafe (even firable) place for those who disagree to express who they are and what they believe.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#438

Suppose that you work for the company that consists of 80% vimers and 20% emacsers. All documentation is geared towards vimers. There are interests groups geared towards vimers. No one questions you if you are a vimer. If you are a stuck with some error as an emacser there are fewer people to turn to or discuss your favorite text editor, so some people start to suggest that emacsers are worse programmers. The company…

I get what you're going for here but this isn't really a case where it makes sense to draw equivalence to text editors, tabs vs spaces, etc. This isn't a matter of taste or habit - it's a matter of discriminating against people based on the gender marker on their birth certificate or the color of their skin.

The discussion became so emotionally charged on either side so analogies are our best weapon right now.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#439
post #224

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

It's not about virtue signaling, he was almost certain to be terminated just because it was a ridiculously stupid thing to say - you can't tell your teammates that they were hired because their employer lowered the bar and expect people not to be upset about it (and that's 100% what he did, he also made up pseudo-scientific bullshit to try to justify it, but he flat out insulted countless people within his company).…

> Given that the document has (rightfully) alienated women inside and outside his organization

This argument only work is every woman can only see themselves as part of the group and are incapable of seeing themselves as individuals.

I would be willing to bet that there are women (and other diversity hires) at Google that know they are capable of doing their jobs and deserving of being hired. Some of those people might object to being lumped in with the whole and not being seen as individuals.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#440

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

It seems he made that point and then continued to make a bunch of other points, and its those other points that many have a problem with.

I read a good chunk in agreement, but then it just took a left turn. Between its thinly-vieled promotion for 'conservative values' and some very thin 'therefore' conclusions midway through, it would never be able to stand up to the heights of intellect that its author probably intended it for.

Post reply on HN