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PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

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431–440 of 790 posts

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see a tremendous amount of accumulated wisdom in Powershell. It may be newer, but I'm not sure they looked at prior art or had design members who were shell gurus in any other shell than `cmd.exe`, which is a horrific shell. Why are commands horrendously long in powershell? If you spend time in the shell, you don't want your fingers falling off due to overuse. Aside... one of the design decisions Microsoft to…

> Aside... one of the design decisions Microsoft took that absolutely blows my mind is using `\` for file hierarchies instead of `/` That decision goes back to MS-DOS 2.11, circa 1983. (DOS 1.0 didn't have subdirectories.) The model for DOS directories came from UNIX, which at that time was the very aggressively defended intellectual property of AT&T. As Microsoft was an AT&T licensee -- for Xenix, their version of A…

Interesting hypothesis! I'll ask Bill the next time I see him.

Jeffrey Snover[MSFT]

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that to be the issue. You are considering it just RAW text when it is actually formatted text that has been parsable for years with common unix command line tools. It not being in the format you consider a structured object does not mean it's not a object or even parsable. If you are using ad hoc regex I suspect you are not using all the tools available to you. I feel like Kernighan and Pike do a much better j…

So much this. What the M$ community fails to see is that text streams can be consumed by __everyone__. We've basically all accepted the fact that programs are used longer and in different ways than we'd expect. A brittle object model can only lead to vendor lock in and indigestible output.

Nothing prevents me from changing those objects into a text stream. In fact, it's infinitely easier than turning a text stream into objects.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#433
post #423
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have a hard time with this argument. on one hand what you say is true: C# is a strictly smaller community than java. OTOH that's true of pretty much any language, and yet python, ruby, elixir, swift, golang, etc. communities are healthy and vibrant. if what you really mean is 'java people won't switch to C# anyway', then i agree, but C# isn't a really a language for them. it's a language for people who don't like a…

That is not quite true. Many of us doing enterprise consulting do jump between Java and .NET projects all the time. Sometimes even doing mixed projects, like the UI in .NET and the backend in Java.

i'll grant you that after a very brief consideration

> UI in .NET and the backend in Java.

makes a lot of sense.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aside... one of the design decisions Microsoft took that absolutely blows my mind is using `\` for file hierarchies instead of `/` That decision goes back to MS-DOS 2.11, circa 1983. (DOS 1.0 didn't have subdirectories.) The model for DOS directories came from UNIX, which at that time was the very aggressively defended intellectual property of AT&T. As Microsoft was an AT&T licensee -- for Xenix, their version of A…

Interesting hypothesis! I'll ask Bill the next time I see him. Jeffrey Snover[MSFT]

I'll take his word for it. (If he remembers trivia like that a third of a century later ...)

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#435
I dreaded this day would come. As a recent ex-Microsoft alumnus, and with years of System Center insanity behind my back, I saw this coming, and even heard faint echoes of it in the hallways as I left.

I have deep respect for Jeffrey and what he's accomplished (there's a great video of Jeffrey talking to Linux sysadmins and explaining the genesis of PowerShell, including the insane amount of money we burned before he wrote the bits that actually worked over Christmas break), but the grand (corporate) motivation for sponsoring something like this is more driven towards making sure the MS datacenter management tooling (which comprises trendy things like OMS and System Center) attain minimal mindshare in both the on-premises datacenter and on Azure.

That is not something most people would care about, but Enterprise IT likes having a single hammer for all its nails, and PowerShell's promise is to be the one thing that your garden variety IT sysadmin would love to use to automate every single system in your company.

Ironically, PS is effectively lousy at automation because of its inconsistent error handling and incredibly hard to maintain over time due to constant changes and updates, so I'm curious to see how it will evolve to manage all the different abstractions in the UNIX world (knowing my former colleagues, it will likely follow the OMS route of "Windowzifying" those abstractions and making them "uniform" - i.e., Windows-like).

The underlying issue where it regards PowerShell is not the language itself (although yes, something better, more coherent and with an actual standard library would have been nice, like Ruby or Python). It's Windows.

Windows (the enterprise platform) has always been a hectic patchwork of multiple components (AD, SQL, IIS, etc.) that evolve at their own pace, and PowerShell grew to encompass them not merely because basic automation was an actual checkbox we had to have to be able to sign some hefty deals, but, technically because _none of it had open APIs_. Nor would it be feasible at the time to go back and re-do any of it with proper language-agnostic APIs.

It's very nice to iterate over AD entries and set some fields with a couple of lines of PowerShell, yes. But it's also fundamentally impossible to do so with just about anything else.

Tying it all to the .NET stack (which is still prevalent in everything done internally, because that's what customers invested in) turned out to be a lazy-ass way to ensure we could check all the boxes in terms of automating new things as they came along (mostly - WMI is still iffy). Effective and "scriptable", but essentially still proprietary.

And right now, since my former colleagues are betting the farm on Azure, I expect PS for Linux to become the de facto scripting language for managing Linux on it (it already is, to a degree, since PowerShell DSC already lets you "manage" Linux VMs).

For interactive use, PS was a pain to learn (I was a VMS guy, originally), but, most importantly, it was a nightmare to maintain, because cmdlets would pop up and disappear between releases, change semantics, and were quite often inconsistent among themselves.

I shudder at the level of technical debt would-be adopters will be buying into, and wish them luck.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#436
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no issue with the license.

So it's maintained in the open on GitHub, it's technically open source in terms of licensing. Yet you claim it's not really open source. Care to clarify?

It’s technically open-source, that’s the point. There’s more to open-source than license. Sorry but there’s no way for me to clarify without just repeating my original comment.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#437
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scripting. While I typically use Bash on Windows to use grep to interactively test my webserver, I'm much happier using Powershell ISE (which I don't know was ported [1]) to write standard tests with multiple parts, particularly ones that require e.g. checking cookies on the response. 1. Looks like they ported a service that does the same. https://github.com/powershell/powershelleditorservices

Can you be more specific? Powershell instead of using grep? Or as a testing framework? Or an embedded interactive REPL? I mean, just broadly, with basically zero knowledge of powershell, what I see is a custom scripting language with a set of common 'macro' commandlets that do little tasks. ...but, I don't see how that's useful? How do you import a package to upload a file to S3? I can't just install https://aws.amaz…

We are currently performing final validation on our new AWSPowerShell.NetCore module and hope to publish it to the PowerShell Gallery in the next couple of days.

Blog post to the announcement: http://blogs.aws.amazon.com/net/post/TxTUNCCDVSG05F/Introduc....

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#438
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's maintained in the open on GitHub, it's technically open source in terms of licensing. Yet you claim it's not really open source. Care to clarify?

It’s technically open-source, that’s the point. There’s more to open-source than license. Sorry but there’s no way for me to clarify without just repeating my original comment.

Your original comments mostly contained your personal opinions, not actual facts. The fact is that it is open source and you are FUDing.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#439
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who aren’t forced to use Java will choose Scala or other JVM langs, like Kotlin, Ceylon (a favorite of mine) or even Clojure. C# the language is not exactly that exciting. I get it, it looks attractive next to Java, but it’s still a verbose, corporate-first, sort of thing. If anything, F# is much more competitive. Too bad it’s on CLR.

[disclaimer, also MS employee]. This has already devolved into opinion territory but I don't think you're giving C# enough credit. I picked up F# relatively early in it's lifetime (2006ish?), back then there were many language features in F# that you just couldn't do in C#. The gap closed a lot when C# got LINQ, generics, and lambda/first-class functions (these are relatively old language features by now). If I want…

Don’t forget Rx. Not exactly language feature, but certainly a great contribution to come out of C#/.NET. And who knows if it would have happened without LINQ.

I like the language. Just not enough to use it over JVM. And I think most people feel the same way.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#440
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...things available to C# now are actually better (especially Visual Studio), but that's certainly biased. You call Visual Studio good? Have you actually used it? VS2015 is painfully slow, and yes, I've installed all of the updates and I have no plugins or such. Heck, even Eclipse feels zippy compared to it. Something as simple as finding next text search match takes about a second. Changing to a different source c…

There's a box you can tick that says no to all of that stuff, though I don't know if you can access it after the first run. (I never have to log in when I run Visual Studio.)

No, at least in the version I have, license expires quickly.

If I don't enter the credentials, it won't be able to renew the license, so it's not possible to use it at all. Regardless of any checkbox ticks.

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