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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#431

Post by ocfx »

netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

When political votes go your way I bet you don't start questioning the need for an absolute authority. This is literally just throwing a tantrum because you didn't get your way. The EU always was and always will be cancer and Britain leaving will be the first of many. We tried it out, it doesn't work, let's go back to sovereign nations working together on their own terms.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#432

Post by zghst »

arcticbull wrote: post #388
zghst wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about decisions like electing the leader of the free world? The most powerful person on earth? Should that be left up to every day people? I think that people should be able to make big decisions that effect them. Direct democracy is more useful than ever, the elites use our republic to manipulate people more than ever. They game the system and with no balance or checks on their power.

IMO its as easy for the elites to manipulate the public via media as it is for them to manipulate elected representatives and the latter is easier to address via checks and balances, though nobody seems willing to put them in. Elections are in the public interest so campaigns should be solely funded by the government, not by private backers. Private parties should not be able to run media campaigns on behalf or again…

But in politics and economy per se, there is no right decision. There is no such thing as a utopia or path to one, social and economic order is in a constant, violent evolution. Politicians just manipulate this struggle instead of heal it. If you can accept that you can't control adult children, why not accept that you can't control people?

And that's not entirely false, parents can decide what medicine and procedures to put a child through. Doctors aren't all knowing, they make many mistakes and are even in the favor of special interests like pharmaceutical companies.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#433

Post by WorldMaker »

Matumio wrote: post #310
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favored election procedure works like this: Every citizen takes a standardized test when they reach the age of majority, preferably Raven's matrices. This test would be used for scholastic and career purposes, aside from government. A representative body of 150 people is randomly selected from those in the top 0.1 percent every N years. The IQ test filters for intelligence, obviously. Random sampling serves as an…

I like the random selection part as anti-corruption measure. But the top 0.1 percent IQ filter is not very democratic. You can train for those (if you have the time and money) and there will always be some cultural bias built into the test. It's uncomfortably close to excluding a whole race or sex.

I've long thought an entirely random selection "civic house" in legislative branches would be an interesting check or balance to the current interests and status quo. Make serving for legislature something like jury duty in that you just randomly might be asked to do it for a few months. In the age of internet communications you can presumably do it in such a way that the random selectees will not see much impact on their "normal lives" and jobs... in fact that could be a useful selective pressure against certain forms of politicking ("I can't listen to this filibuster all night, I have to actually work in the morning.").

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#434

Post by Moshe_Silnorin »

zghst wrote: post #424
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could Raven's Matrices be culturally biased: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven%27s_Progressive_Matrices >How does this test help against those that are disenfranchised and without privilege? In the best possible way. By providing them with a competent government. >How do we challenge those with privilege and power and their positions and goals? Could you expand on that without using the term "privilege."

Your argument is that this proposition is valid notwithstanding the very real power struggle in society. Why would one want to even put someone through something as humiliating as an intelligence test to determine their rights. It reminds me of the reading tests during segregation to suppress black voters. If we would have implemented this test then, tell me would they have a fair chance in society? At least from my…

Why would you put someone through something as humiliating as a college education, and their final exams? Presumably you want a measure of their knowledge and capability. In my system, no one has the right to become a representative. It's a job like any other, that requires non-standard admissions procedures (namely random sampling) to avoid corruption. I'm unsure if traditions could be enshrined to make my system stable, as it doesn't have a fiction as beautiful as the people's will to justify its existence. But I do think it's worth considering.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#435

Post by pmelendez »

netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas?

I have been reflecting about this for a long time (as Venezuelan I witnessed how people can be manipulated and divided easily)

I have this crazy idea that countries should provide a "voting license" that would require the study of the matter to be chosen previous to the election process. The motto should the same that driving... It is a privilege not a right although everyone has the right to apply for it

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#436

Post by manarth »

ultramancool wrote: post #418
devy wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FDR summed it up pretty nicely in this quote: Democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education. And it seems that a lot of Britons requires exactly that: education before making a wise decision. [1] http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/f/franklind402955.h...

Are you trying to imply they didn't "make a wise decision" or perhaps that your political opposition is stupid?

This is being widely reported: "The higher the level of education, the higher the EU support".

> "According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit."

> "Those with no education tended to vote Brexit"

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how...

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#437

Post by jonwachob91 »

partiallypro wrote: post #268
dharma1 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is a much more divided society than Switzerland, in terms of the base level of income and education. The median income in Switzerland is double that of the UK. Education is harder to compare, but you can't really expect the same level of discourse

It's also very hard for a poorer or even middle class immigrant to move to a place like Switzerland because the cost of living is so high. This creates an environment of unanimity you wouldn't see in more diverse cultures like the U.S. or the U.K. I think that's largely why Switzerland and the Scandinavian states get accolades from U.S. politicians (not as much division.) But they don't seem to get that the cultures…

>that's largely why Switzerland and the Scandinavian states get accolades from U.S. politicians (not as much division.)

I have to disagree with you. I have a lot of friends in Sweden that do nothing but complain about the immigration crisis they are facing. In fact one of my Swedish friends is here in the US now looking for a job because immigration has become such an issue in Sweden. She can name many immigrants she knows that are collecting more in welfare from the Swedish Government than what a Doctor makes... That's kinda fucked up if you ask me...

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#438

Post by xenophonf »

jessaustin wrote: post #248
27182818284 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Switzerland is also much smaller than the UK or California in most respects. This comes up all the time, especially in "Why can't the US do X?" discussions but isn't it just the equivalent of shouting down with "That will never scale!" Of course it might not be exactly the same. Maybe the bigger country will need more servers spun up or a tweaked algorithm (to continue the analogy), but just saying a country is smal…

Maybe the bigger nation just shouldn't be so big?

Hence, the "states" part of "United States".

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#439

Post by zghst »

thomasahle wrote: post #403
zghst wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should just put machines in charge. I don't trust any humans to rule over me anymore. Power corrupts, absolutely

Could work (because better decisions were made), or could be terrible (because people stopped feeling responsible). We should try it :-)

Math is already in charge of society. More math would be good for all of us

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#440

Post by TWAndrews »

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

Right, but all those are inherent to the people of Switzerland. The same system in, say, Italy wouldn't get those results.
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