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Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

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Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#431

Post by saulrh »

grecy wrote: post #408
saulrh wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem with this idea is that your cell phone exposes your brain to trivial quantities of EM radiation in both absolute and relative terms. If EM in that spectrum had any kind of effect, we'd have seen it long since in people that live near radio masts, people that work with radar units and radio transmitters (military, mostly), people that sleep next to their wifi modems, people working in electrical ge…

Again, you miss the point. The certainty with which you make these statements is the exact same certainty that scientists 50 or 100 years ago used to justify doing all kinds of shit we now know caused unforeseen harm. Don't focus on the one example I gave, focus on that fact that we continually mess with stuff we don't understand, with consequences we can't comprehend. Then 50 years later we just say "we know better…

So what do you want to do instead? Do you intend to only do things that we know are safe? If so, how do you intend to prove anything to be absolutely safe? Or, if not, do you intend to do things that we're "pretty sure" are safe, or things that seem to be the least dangerous? Because, the way you're thinking, absolutely anything could have catastrophic results, and you don't give us any useful way to differentiate between stuff we should be doing and stuff we shouldn't be doing.

Of course, I doubt that any of that went through your head. You just pointed at something that caught your attention, completely failing to consider all of the other things that are likely similarly dangerous like aluminum cans, pickled vegetables, soap, clothing, light bulbs, the English language, and so on and so forth. All of those are just as potentially dangerous as cell phones.

I think that you would be well served by studying epistemology, philosophy of science, and rational utilitarianism. I believe that you will find some ideas that will be useful to to you in the future.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#432

Post by dr_toolittle »

learc83 wrote: post #326
dr_toolittle wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are considered harmful to the world as a whole. There's only one human species that would need to be eliminated to solve that problem. You up for that as well?

I want to eliminate harmful mosquitoes to benefit humanity. I place more value on the well being of humanity than I do on that of the rest of the world. In general, I value the well being of the world as a whole, but mostly because it's beneficial to humanity. If we eliminate ourselves, there can be no benefit to humanity--so no, I am not up for that as well. In this specific case, I don't place any intrinsic value i…

> I don't place any intrinsic value in the life of a mosquito

And Hitler didn't place any intrinsic value in the life of a Jew.

I just don't think it's ok to eliminate a species. Intentional extinction of any species is not ok with me, even if it is a mosquito.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#433

Post by burfog »

washadjeffmad wrote: post #252
nickff wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard of equivalent 'screwups' described as horrific criminal actions, described as being done by greedy, stupid, and lazy people who should be sent to federal prison; but alas, those were private parties. My point was that catastrophic negligence goes unpunished when committed by a bureaucrat. Horses were native to North America, and existed on the continent before humans arrived; they were probably wiped out…

I would. The hunting to scarcity of gray wolves led to a boom of deer who ravage crops and woods, carry disease, and create hazards for humans on roadways and when they end up in cities. And look up rates for CWD in your state, and hope it never becomes transmissible to humans. Bison have the same issues with overpopulation and overgrazing, and they're being allowed to roam outside of Yellowstone again soon, which is…

The solution to problem animals (deer) is not to add more problem animals (wolves) into the mix. The only thing "good" about wolves is that they kill deer. They also kill people.

The proper solution is to encourage hunting. The idea of "deer season" is crazy; they should be hunted continuously. To the extent that it is safe, this should be allowed in suburban neighborhoods and city parks.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#434

Post by Melkman »

rsync wrote: post #424
saulrh wrote: post #60

Most of the "whoops" tales are people that didn't listen to their scientists telling them not to, didn't have scientists at all, or were from long enough ago that we can discard their stories as irrelevant in the same way that we'd discard things like "spaceflight is impossible" and "nukes will end war". We've now traced the food chain around malaria mosquitoes out to three or four degrees of separation, including th…

"Granted, we can never be certain about it. We're not deities, we're still limited by information theory and epistemology. But we're pretty damn sure. Way more than we need to be to go save half a million people a year." (I support eradicating mosquitos) What is missing from this discussion, however, is the agent of malaria itself . We keep discussing this in terms of the mosquito, as if it is the mosquito that is th…

Malaria is not a sentient organism that feels cornered and will lash out because of that. The chance that it will mutate to an other infection mechanism is directly related with the number of specimens in circulation. Killing off it's carrier will reduce it.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#435

Post by pvaldes »

saulrh wrote: post #60

Most of the "whoops" tales are people that didn't listen to their scientists telling them not to, didn't have scientists at all, or were from long enough ago that we can discard their stories as irrelevant in the same way that we'd discard things like "spaceflight is impossible" and "nukes will end war". We've now traced the food chain around malaria mosquitoes out to three or four degrees of separation, including th…

> Their entire ecological niche is trivially replaced by close relatives that don't carry malaria

We can not be sure about this; evolution is fast in arthropods. And they will bring their own diseases with them.

Mosquitoes are anything but unimportant or uncommon for the ecosystem.

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#436

Post by pvaldes »

hellbanner wrote: post #7

On reddit, I remember seeing something like "Research assures government that killing mosquitos would have no negative effect on world ecology"... right above another thread titled "Scientists underestimate ecological impact of species destruction"... Do we actually understand Mosquitos role in the planet's eco system?

Partially, yes. Is huge

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#437

Post by pvaldes »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #69
joekrill wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They very well could be. That's just it -- we don't know. And when we kill them all off, are we going to be able to reverse it when we find out that the result is causing two million deaths per year?

The worst man-made ecological disasters in history caused tens of thousands of deaths. We can say with certainty that killing off a few species of mosquitoes will not be worse.

You certaintyometer needs to be tuned. Around 129.000 people died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and at least 200.000 people killed in Chernobyl until data. And this is a child's play compared with the >85 millions of humans killed by a worst ecological disaster. We can say with certainty that nobody thought in ancient times that those small and clean rodents, living peacefully in the grasslands and steppes of Central Asia were something to worry. Rats in Europe were not unlike the good species of mosquito if we think about it, with their own diseases and new random relationships...

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#439

Post by acqq »

grecy wrote: post #419
gohrt wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in 2060 we'll discover that NOT radiating our brains was killing us. You can't just arbitrarily guess which things are dangerous -- you have to raise legitimate scientific questions. It's amazing we're not all dead yet, isn't it? messing with everything like we have, vastly extending expected lifespan and years of health...

> It's amazing we're not all dead yet, isn't it? Tens of thousands of living things that used to call this planet home are extinct thanks to our meddling. I'd say that's proof enough we're badly f'ing things up.

> Tens of thousands ... are extinct thanks to our meddling.

Probably much more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

"the present rate of extinction may be up to 140,000 species per year,[2] making it the greatest loss of biodiversity since the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event."

Re: Let's Kill All the Mosquitoes

#440

Post by learc83 »

dr_toolittle wrote: post #432
learc83 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to eliminate harmful mosquitoes to benefit humanity. I place more value on the well being of humanity than I do on that of the rest of the world. In general, I value the well being of the world as a whole, but mostly because it's beneficial to humanity. If we eliminate ourselves, there can be no benefit to humanity--so no, I am not up for that as well. In this specific case, I don't place any intrinsic value i…

> I don't place any intrinsic value in the life of a mosquito And Hitler didn't place any intrinsic value in the life of a Jew. I just don't think it's ok to eliminate a species. Intentional extinction of any species is not ok with me, even if it is a mosquito.

And that's the difference between me and Hitler--I value all human Life.

Other than that reply, I'm going to ignore your Hitler comment.

How much intrinsic value do you place on the life of a mosquito? Would you die to save all mosquitoes? To save half of all mosquitoes? A million mosquitoes? What would you sacrifice to save the life of 1 mosquito?

>I just don't think it's ok to eliminate a species. Intentional extinction of any species is not ok with me, even if it is a mosquito.

Do you value humans more than mosquitoes? Would you eliminate mosquitoes if it meant saving the human race? What if it meant saving half the human race? Saving a billion people? A few million a year?

How about viruses? Do you think we should reintroduce smallpox to the wild?

Maybe you don't consider viruses to be truly alive, so how about bacteria? Are you opposed to eliminating the bacteria that causes anthrax?

How about a more complex lifeform? What are your thoughts on eliminating malaria parasites?

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