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My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

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Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#431

Post by cookiecaper »

citizens wrote: post #422
tcfunk wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like $80k must be an outdated number. My wife and I pull in just under $100k together, and we can't even (comfortably) afford a home. Between rent, student loan payments, health insurance, bills, and car loans, and food, I think we maybe have $500 left to throw around each month. If we were paying against a mortgage, that would basically be zero.

It's definitely outdated, or at least location dependent. The average rent in Manhattan in 2/16 was $3,850. Landlords won't rent to you unless you earn 40x the monthly rent which is $154k. In Brooklyn, the average is $2,716 which ends up being $108,640. ( http://www.mns.com/brooklyn_rental_market_report )

Most people don't live in Manhattan or Brooklyn. If you live in a high COL area, adjust accordingly. I suggested using an approximate 2.3x multiplier elsewhere.

The most financially effective way to be a programmer is to work remotely for someone who pays SF or NYC salaries and live in a moderate COL area.

I've always seen the rental income requirement you stated phrased as "monthly income must be at least 3x monthly rent", in case the 40x thing threw anyone else off (40/12=3.33).

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#433

Post by _yosefk »

pjlegato wrote: post #400
Zelmor wrote: post #24

He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 You chose one option out of many, and the others may no longer be a possibility. However, the writer's unhappiness does not spawn from his inability to be successful at what he does,…

> I just have to say this: So typically american. This remark would be considered highly offensive and racist if it were uttered about most nationalities. Would you say that to appraise the sentiments of, for example, a Jew? Of course not. Everyone would rightly condemn you for it.

I dunno, I'm Jewish and I wouldn't mind this particular remark, and a sister comment claimed it seemed typically Chinese just as much and claimed to be Chinese themselves.

One point here is that it's seemingly OK if it's not derogatory plus one is talking about one's own group. Another point is there's a continuum between nationality and culture, and it ought to be OK to point out that something is specific to a culture, and American specifically is very likely to be used to label a culture and not the people as in a bunch of guys and gals with specific genes. This is not to say that one ought to agree with grandparent's views on American culture, just that those views probably aren't racist.

BTW I personally try not to say this sort of thing since people might be offended all too easily, so I guess I agree with you in that way.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#434

Post by evook »

madengr wrote: post #346
buserror wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise here. I'm 47, been programming since I'm 12. I'm very good at it. I also know I'd be a bad manager, unless I work with /very/ good people. And yes, Ican relate to the article; I've seen (I still see) junior managers who can barely tie their shoes make more money than excellent engineers with 25y experience, but that's the way the world is... Basically 'engineer'/'programmer' is a calling for some; it is for…

"I've seen (I still see) junior managers who can barely tie their shoes make more money than excellent engineers with 25y experience, but that's the way the world is.." Screw that. I'd never work for a place like that.

This attitude works out if your extremely good in your Spezialisation. I had kept track of my own ROI for the companies I worked for, granted them a bit of that and the rest should be for me. It worked because I always had the digits at hand. Basically "I need a raise, I have 3 jobs offers lined up, your making this of me and I demand x% of that otherwise you loose y over the course of z. Deal?"

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#435

Post by jlas »

tragic wrote: post #125
wtbob wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> JavaScript is actually an incredibly flexible and effective language. == vs === No integers. Assignment is declaration. Prototypes. Curly brackets & semicolons. Semicolon insertion. It may be flexible (in the sense that an Alfa Romeo driven into a telephone pole at 120 mph is flexible), but it sure as heck ain't effective. JavaScript is the great shame of the computing industry: that it exists, and that it is used,…

> No integers. Fair enough. > Assignment is declaration. Not exactly. You can declare variables separately, if you want. In fact, a "var x = 42" statement will actually be split into "var x;" at the top of the scope and "x = 42" wherever you actually wrote it by the interpreter. The specified behaviour is a little weird and non-obvious, but once you know it, you know it. > Prototypes. That's a matter of taste (plus t…

> and of course we have class syntax now anyway

Even using Class syntax you're still locked into prototypical inheritance model. There is no classical inheritance in JS. (Probably a backward step in UX to call it "Class")

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#436

Post by rogeroga »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #173
dcw303 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still coding after almost 20 years in the job, and have no intention of stopping. I tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur. None of them give me the thrill that I get from programming. I still get locked into a flow where time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed. The only other activity that does that is Civ, and no-one is going to pay me to play that ;) If 10x assets is what drives y…

I'm in my late forties and have been a professional developer for 25+ years. I agree with what you said in your comment, but this stood out: "You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today." This is not a bad way to live, but as I get older I am increasingly aware that there will be a day when I'm dead tomorrow. And for that reason I'm increasingly less interested in spending time in the state where "time…

QUESTION for people like you: +20 YEARS OF PROGRAMMING EXPERIENCE that like to be in the zone, cranking code and building, releasing stuff to the world and then enjoy the impact of that when people use it.

Have you noticed that now more than never before there is plethora of amazing libraries, frameworks, language, tools, platforms, clouds, etc. that are easily available to use and if you like to build stuff WHY NOT CREATE YOUR OWN THING and come up with your own ideas and build them instead of continuing working for one company probably using the same software stack? Why limit yourself? have you entertained a regret like this?

I ask this, because I'm in the same boat as you and this is my small regret though I'm working on the side, slowly, to build my own thing in the free time that family and my day job allows it.

Cheers!

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#437

Post by fhood »

cookiecaper wrote: post #424
fhood wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have a skill that a large number of people are willing to pay for them that in itself represents independence. Earning potential is far more valuable than money. And guess what, if your children decide not to use those banks and universities, and don't get jobs then they may be "independent, but they are also dead weights. If they don't have skills that contribute to society, they are irrelevant. I agree that pe…

>If I have a skill that a large number of people are willing to pay for them that in itself represents independence. No. Having an in-demand skill is a tool to obtain and keep independence. It's not independence itself. There are many people out there with high-demand skills who still find themselves unhappily slaving away in a job where they must do someone else's bidding for 40%+ of their waking day. Once they have…

I agree with you on most of these points but I do want to clarify a few things. Banks circulate money, they don't just hold on to it, and that is good for the economy. Don't get me wrong Banking as a reality is among the scummiest parts of the modern economy, but as a concept they provide invaluable services.

To respond to your point about contributing to society, I totally agree that parenting is among the most important contributions you can make to society. But I don't think that you can be a very effective parent without the wold view provided by interaction with both people and knowledge. And this interaction is very difficult to find outside of the university and workplace setting. As a parent you should absorb as much knowledge and experience as possible so that you can pass that on, and your children can build on that rather than wasting time re-learning it.

Finally, you are right that welfare allows people without money to live while making basically no contributions to anything. But is not a comfortable life. Anyway my point was less that you shouldn't give your children money because it will make them Deadbeats, and more that you should try to get as much value from each dollar as possible and I don't personally believe that giving all of your money to your children is likely to be the best way to achieve that.

I apologize for my formatting. Writing this on a phone.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#438

Post by mahyarm »

_gi12 wrote: post #263
okyup wrote: post #140

I agree that programming is a dead end job. It's popular and relatively easy. It doesn't require any special skills. Anyone with an average IQ can learn it. There's low cost and barrier of entry to getting started. It's fun and addicting when you're a kid. Then you get trapped and it becomes monotonous. There's only so good you can get at programming. Beyond that, most of your time is spent on debugging trivial issue…

You've described exactly how I feel. I've only be at this game for 4 years and I'm already looking for a way out. Programming is fun in the way that doing drugs is fun; it's addicting and provides a quick high, but at the cost of staring into a computer screen for weeks on end with little to no interaction with other people aside from meetings (which only exist so that your superiors can tell you which widget to cran…

I find software can actually be pretty social as you ask your peers for code reviews, go have lunch with each other, ask each other about their opinions about things, have planning meetings, just chat randomly about stuff at the water cooler, make jokes on company chat and so on.

Sometimes it goes overboard and you don't have a contiguous 4 hours to just focus on coding.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#439

Post by cableshaft »

qznc wrote: post #412
cableshaft wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a programmer, and then spent a year and a half as a games producer, and could have kept going down that path, but decided to go back in programming. Half the time I spent as a producer I was worried about the fact that I wasn't doing any programming, and my skills were atrophying. Production had some real perks in comparison, being able to meet a lot of people I admired, going on business trips, etc, but I got…

> If I were in that position today I'd be a lot more specific That isn't the job of a producer or manager. Maybe quality assurance or testing? It sounds like you were micromanaging them. If I were in that position I would try to educate them about what makes a game hard and how hard games should be. I would educate them about typography. I would not tell them what to do. They must find the solution themselves. Hm, I'…

Essentially when I said I'd be more specific, I would provide requirements. But this is a game, not a business app, and writing up the requirements for 'fun' and a 'good experience for the gamer' is not exactly easy.

We were a bit more specific than 'make it easier', I just have a vague memory exactly what we said because it was 8 years ago and a lot has happened since then.

And we were a super small company. I had to wear many hats; overseeing QA was one of them.

Micro-managing is an extreme term, and I don't think we were. We weren't telling each developer what their tasks were for the day, we were communicating with their project manager and saying which bugs or features had what priority, and by the way we played the build and we think the font looks too small, could you please increase the size, it's okay if the UI takes more space, please remember not everyone will be playing this on HD tvs, thank you.

And I was playing each build to do some internal verification that the bugs they say they fixed did get fixed, yes. Personally I think it's better the publisher knows what's going on with their own game (keep in mind, the developer didn't pitch the game, they were hired) than blindly trust that everything is going the right direction, until it's time for a milestone payment and "holy shit, that's nothing like what we asked for! you don't get paid until it's fixed!"

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#440

Post by audleman »

dcw303 wrote: post #38
Zelmor wrote: post #24

He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 You chose one option out of many, and the others may no longer be a possibility. However, the writer's unhappiness does not spawn from his inability to be successful at what he does,…

I'm still coding after almost 20 years in the job, and have no intention of stopping. I tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur. None of them give me the thrill that I get from programming. I still get locked into a flow where time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed. The only other activity that does that is Civ, and no-one is going to pay me to play that ;) If 10x assets is what drives y…

The author states that he won't be able to retire. I find that hard to believe; programming is fairly lucrative.
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