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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#431

Post by thedufer »

tptacek wrote: post #115
jasode wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way. Because every method of hiring has its own biases and tradeoffs. Requiring work samples biases against programmers who aren't interested in doing a "homework assignment". For example, I don't enjoy whiteboard interviews but I'd rather write some fragments in front of the interviewer and "think out loud" instead…

The "no homework" thing is such a red herring. Companies that do work samples minimize on-site coding interviews , because the whole point of offsite work sample testing is that most candidates can't provide an accurate picture of their aptitude in an on-site coding interview. No interviewing software developer prefers an extra 6 hours of on-site interview to an off-site coding challenge. The problem developers have…

The problem with take-home assignments isn't how long they take - it's how many you end up doing.

Resume-to-offer attrition rates are often as high as 99.9%. In-person interview-to-offer attrition rates are rarely worse than 90% and often in the 30%-50% range.

The thing about homework is that it costs companies basically nothing (one form email followed by an automatic grader in some cases), so they can afford to give it as early as possible - strictly by the numbers, this means offers cost on average 1000x8 hours. Whereas in the in-person interview case, the big cost is much later in the process, so it's more like 10x8 hours per offer.

Worse yet, this cost falls heavier on developers that have more trouble getting jobs, who are probably less likely to be able to weather that cost. Not a great situation.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#432

Post by iolothebard »

disbelief wrote: post #389
iolothebard wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a C, I hire A++ and steal all the credit!

You're an A because you know you're a C and have employed this workaround to compensate ;)

Well now you and my wife can agree on that. So I've got two people in my corner!

I'm actually a mediocre software engineer. Making an accounting system do XYZ for the 4000th time isn't interesting anymore. Doing it in Angular with all the new whizbang whistles and shit is more annoying than fun.

I'm looking at a career switch or something different. I can't keep creating the same nonsense over and over and watch IT run by people that largely wouldn't be good as managers of a McDonald's much less an entire organization's IT department.

The first way to see if a company actually understands the importance of IT is to see whether they have a CIO or a Director of IT / VP Engineering / Other less than CIO role. If they can't even commit a C role, what do you think their thoughts are on IT?

:-)

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#433

Post by qzxvwt »

msy wrote: post #416
ClayFerguson wrote: post #412

I think the reason so many companies resort to asking candidates to do a programming project for the interview is because they are lazy and don't want to take time to interview someone, or they suck at interviewing, or both. Bottom line, if you can't judge someone's ability by talking to them it's YOUR fault. You suck at interviewing. Last time I was looking for a job a company I was interested in gave me this massiv…

Have you considered that part of the purpose of the challenge might be to filter out particularly arrogant applicants who might be problematic in a team setting?

Could be, but that'd be an assumption at best, and "negging" at worst.

Also, one could just as easily see a "massive" assignment as arrogance from the employer.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#434

Post by iolothebard »

protomyth wrote: post #370
iolothebard wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had this happen multiple times. Why would you hire your own replacement? (This is how they think.) When they have someone hiring not based on what's best for the company but what's best for their own career goals, you know you're going to have issues. Welcome to the world of tailoring yourself for the job. I'm in my 40s, so it gets worse. Can't wait until I'm over 50!

> Welcome to the world of tailoring yourself for the job. I'm in my 40s, so it gets worse. Can't wait until I'm over 50! It seems like someone could get a pretty good staff if they targeted all the late 30+ people.

Maybe, we tend to put up with less nonsense though. However, that's typically beneficial to business as well. The only software engineers I've ever worked with that actually consider the costs are those that have either owned their own companies (startups/etc) or are older (and know the trade offs from decades of dealing with them).

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#435

Post by driverdan »

robodale wrote: post #59
orng wrote: post #4

I really hate having to solve these kind of programming challenges. I've already sent you my CV, with references from former/current employers and co-workers. Call them up if you are worried that I'm lying on my résumé, don't waste my time by making me work for the chance of maybe getting a job as only payment. Doing multiple interviews already takes up enough of my time, seeing as I'm the one who has to commute to y…

Right with you buddy. I no longer accept coding challenges or even interviews that go over 30 min. I tell them my services are $150/hour. If you want me to do a 4-8 hour exercise for the privilege of interviewing further then make it worth my time...just like any other consulting gig I do.

What you're actually saying is "I have enough freelance / contract work and am not looking for a full time job." I said similar things when I was freelancing.

If you were actually looking for a full time position you'd do the interview. It's completely reasonable to require an unpaid interview from a candidate.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#436

Post by [deleted] »

philbarr wrote: post #77
Tunabrain wrote: post #9

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

I got laid off recently and was applying for all the jobs I could find. So I had to do a bunch of these programming projects. I don't mind them per-se, but it takes so long to do each one and you have to be ultra-clean with each one. I don't think companies take into account that you might not have that much free time. It's particularly stressful when you don't get through. On pair programming tasks, I had a pair pro…

[deleted]

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#437

Post by autotune »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #369
maxaf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may have dodged the proverbial bullet. Wish I could upvote this twice! Every rejection I've ever received came with an information-rich sideband that told me more about the prospective employer than an acceptance would have. In at least half of such cases I said to myself: "phew, that was a bullet I was lucky to dodge... imagine how it might feel to work with these people!"

Yep. I had a company in the Bay Area fly me out for an interview explaining that they'd pay all expenses (as is common). They made me an offer and I went with a different company. They completely ignored my expense submission (they indicated how to submit this previously...basically just send them photos of the receipts and they'd send me a check) and ignored me after I let them know I was going with another offer, s…

At the opposite end, I had a company fly me out and pay for expenses, and didn't get the job. They followed up a month or two later and sent a check, although by that time my address changed, so I didn't receive it, and told them this after asking my why it wasn't cashed. They sent another one and after procrastinating on cashing it (it was something like $80 worth of Lyft rides), they followed up again at which point I cashed it. Some companies are pretty good at giving a decent interview experience even if they reject you.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#438

Post by catfest »

MangezBien wrote: post #421

Interesting. I applied to DO about ten weeks ago. I had an initial phone screen, and they sent me a code challenge. I completed and turned in the challenge. Then I heard nothing for two weeks. I reached out to my contact there, and she got back to me a week later saying, "I've been waiting on feedback - sorry it's taking so long! I just pinged the manager again this morning." That was the last I heard from DO. I feel…

Ugh, I have a take home assignment from them to do, worried the same thing will happen to me :/ I don't want to waste the time if they don't get back to me..

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#439

Post by nvarsj »

wrong_variable wrote: post #377
seanp2k2 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of this is that not everyone has the luxury of that much free time to focus on puzzle-type exercises just to get a foot in the door. This process seems to select for single people with a good amount of free time, which, depending on who you ask, is possibly what they want (if e.g. frequently greater than 40hr work weeks are expected). Edit: thinking more about this, it's good to see that it's a paid puz…

I understand your concern but you are actually talking from a privileged position. Its not really that hard to take a bit of time out of your evening or weekend to do some online programming exercise - IF that is the only thing that companies want. Anecdotally speaking I had to do these types of things while working full time to pay the bills. Having a broader perspective - its maybe only in programming that the hiri…

> its only in programming that raw skills can get you anywhere

Simply not true. Maybe there's a few exceptions, but in general, most companies (especially in tech - just check out our great diversity :|), filter based on arbitrary things like 'school', 'specific # years of technical experience', and other flavours of the day.

Example: I had an interview with Mozilla many years ago, where the first question was, I kid you not, "Are you a Javascript rockstar?". I said no (being truthful - I was naive back then), to which the reply was an immediate "Sorry - bye".

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#440

Post by jghn »

pdxandi wrote: post #68
jghn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We ask candidates to pick a work sample of something they already have, if they have one they can provide. If they don't we give them a relatively painless coding test instead. It's not perfect, it'd be great if everyone could have a work sample but as you say that's just not the world we live in.

I appreciate this approach. I'd love to be more active with outside-of-work projects, but my days are usually already full. And I can't provide a lot of code samples because the majority of my work is IP.

Exactly. Furthermore my experience has been that requiring prior work samples unfairly biases towards younger developers. Our system is far from perfect but it allows us to see prior work where possible by provide a fallback when it isn't
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