State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions • Hacker News Board

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#431

Post by gotchange » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:07 AM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #311

Shivetya wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you underestimate the impact this type of terrorism has. The real massive danger is constantly trying to downplay it. The simple fact is, when facing an irrational enemy the last thing you can do is try to shift the blame to those who react.

What impact? They kill a few people. That's terrible, but it's not even enough to dent the murder statistics. Let alone all causes of premature death. The only impact is people's reaction to it. Blame should be shifted to those who react. It absolutely should be downplayed.

> It absolutely should be downplayed.

Wait till you live in Iraq or Afghanistan where these incidents occur on a daily basis and see if you will still stand by your statement or revisit it very soon.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#432

Post by azth » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:09 AM UTC

dan_dimerman wrote: post #393

jacquesm wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

it's not a coincidence. I think the correlation between Islam and violence is too strong to ignore for tolerance and political correctness sake.

Correlation vs. causation fallacy.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#433

Post by saeranv » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:10 AM UTC

scrollaway wrote: post #299

rayiner wrote: post #125

Disappointed to see the comments downplaying the situation because as many people get killed in car accidents every week or whatever. Terrorist acts damage the social fabric far beyond the death toll. That's the whole point of terrorism.

I live in greece, but france is my country and I haven't heard back from my sister who lives around there. I know the odds are she's fine, but there's still the doubt in my mind. It certainly feels different when you feel affected. You want to be reactionary. You want to have a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe I now understand why people are so quick to try to blame the issue on a certain cause. But inside me I've spent my…

Your reasoned reaction here, is exactly how I would hope to act in the same situation. Thank you and I hope you will hear from your sister soon.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#434

Post by gangcil_yc » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:10 AM UTC

dan_dimerman wrote: post #393

jacquesm wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

it's not a coincidence. I think the correlation between Islam and violence is too strong to ignore for tolerance and political correctness sake.

If we accept all that people claim to be true, Kissinger, Bush and Blair et. al. cannot be any exception. Then what suggestions one gets from the correlation between "upholding democracy and human rights" and the butchery in brutally murdering tens of millions in the last several decades (from Algeria to Cambodia to the genocides in Iraq through sanctions and slaughtering)?

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#435

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:11 AM UTC

obituary_latte wrote: post #421

jacquesm wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the million dollar question. And it's a hard one. I believe that yes, we can do something but I don't believe there is a magical incantation or a simple and short thing that we can do. It will take many years (decades) to slowly un-wind this mess and in the meantime it could get a lot worse and that lone might be enough to lose the plot on any plan that isn't perceived as a silver bullet but that actually has…

>That is the million dollar question. And it's a hard one. I believe that yes, we can do something but I don't believe there is a magical incantation or a simple and short thing that we can do. It will take many years (decades) to slowly un-wind this mess and in the meantime it could get a lot worse and that lone might be enough to lose the plot on any plan that isn't perceived as a silver bullet but that actually ha…

> I fear, though, militant religious sects may not have the same self control.

But that could actually be an advantage. The more people see them for the nutcases they are the shorter the path to a possible solution.

> I fear that the inability or lack of willingness to meet violence with violence may be the downfall of rationality. We rightfully shun violence in place of discussion, but as is evident (again), we are not dealing with rational actors.

The danger in dealing with non-rational actors is that rational people will either do one of two things: they will join the non-rational actors and will respond non-rationally themselves, or they will persist in setting up a rational frame of reference for dialogue with the non-rational actors, which clearly will not work.

So the solution is to treat non-rational actors as exactly what they are: crazy, and deal with them accordingly.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#436

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:17 AM UTC

Fezzik wrote: post #399

dragonwriter wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? Not really; religious identity politics are often used by leaders (whose motivation seems to be more power-seeking than genuinely religious) to connect with foot-soldiers (whose real impetus seems often to be desperation to improve conditions for their family, or themselves, or to redress wrongs they feel have been done to thei…

I probably ascribe to much influence to religion alone on its adherents, especially in the middle-east. That said, it seems the sheer number of crazy wars people have fought in the name of religion - the 30 Years' War, The Crusades, the Sudanese War, etc... - would indicate that at least some number of the participants are involved purely because they think Heaven/Jannah/something else awaits and a god is being pleas…

Religion is simply a very powerful button to press, especially when pressed by someone the person under discussion sees as a person of authority or power figure. Aiming to please is very strongly embedded in human nature, combined with religion it can be powerful enough to make people do the most horrific and stupid things.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#437

Post by electronvolt » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:19 AM UTC

Fezzik wrote: post #399

dragonwriter wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? Not really; religious identity politics are often used by leaders (whose motivation seems to be more power-seeking than genuinely religious) to connect with foot-soldiers (whose real impetus seems often to be desperation to improve conditions for their family, or themselves, or to redress wrongs they feel have been done to thei…

I probably ascribe to much influence to religion alone on its adherents, especially in the middle-east. That said, it seems the sheer number of crazy wars people have fought in the name of religion - the 30 Years' War, The Crusades, the Sudanese War, etc... - would indicate that at least some number of the participants are involved purely because they think Heaven/Jannah/something else awaits and a god is being pleas…

> the 30 Years' War, The Crusades, the Sudanese War, etc... - would indicate that at least some number of the participants are involved purely because they think Heaven/Jannah/something else awaits and a god is being pleased.

I haven't studied all of those wars, but my understanding has been that behind every religious explanation for war is a political power struggle.

Religion is used to get ordinary people to go to war, certainly. If it wasn't religion, it would be something else that speaks to people's emotions and desire to belong to a group. (Patriotism, 'Duty', 'Honor', etc.)

For two of your examples:

The crusades cemented the power of the Papacy and Holy Roman Empire in Europe, partly by sending a lot of armed powerful people to fight elsewhere. It also was an attempt to reunite Catholicism under the Roman Pope (i.e. it was a massive land/tax/power grab by the Pope at the time). Fighting other faiths occurred, and was certainly used as a reason for people to leave their homes and travel hundreds of miles to fight foreigners. (I'm pretty convinced very few people do that willingly.)

The whole Protestant reformation taking off at all (Luther was not the first person to rail against the perceived hypocrisies of the Catholic church) and subsequent 30 years war was generally driven by a desire of the various princes and kings involved to remove themselves from Catholicism. The 30 years war also quickly devolved past Protestants vs. Catholics and largely into various factions jostling for power.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#438

Post by rogerthis » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:20 AM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #237

moultano wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were universally ignored, it wouldn't damage the social fabric.

Ignoring it would also destroy the social fabric. A scene from Brazil that explores this idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4KFNhxibec

When I (did) read "a scene from Brazil" I thought the video would be some sort of commom crime we have here, which in certain cases are very similar to terrorism. And people has been always adapting to it, so it's just shit almost nobody cares anymore. And it's growing year after year.

Well, just to say my misunderstanding of to which Brazil it was referred.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#439

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:22 AM UTC

wslh wrote: post #133

zipwitch wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are ALWAYS dying. Far more from preventable accidents, disease, and war than from terrorism. That does NOT make terrorism any less despicable. But those who use fear of atrocities to push their own oppressive agendas are little better than terrorists themselves. It's a sad truth that there's no question that many surveillance advocates will use an event like this to push their own agendas.

You are talking as if terrorism was a natural disaster, something you can compare statistically and impossible to confront. Terrorism makes you feel fear, even if it's irrational it impacts you and the society you live.

Terrorism does not make me feel fear. It makes me sad. Sad that there are so many lives lost, sad that so many people are still incapable of thinking critically, sad that we're again one step further from an actual solution. it's mostly a sad affair. But fear, no.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#440

Post by gotchange » Sat, Nov 14, 2015, 1:24 AM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #349

pyrrhotech wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so convinced that terrorism is not a threat to society? Lots of Romans probably thought the Huns were a laughable foe as well.

Well I'll start with these two gwern essays: Terrorism is not Effective: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20Effective Terrorism is not About Terror: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20about%20Terror Just look at the statistics. The total number of people killed by terrorists is negligible. And 0 terrorist groups have ever won and achieved their stated goals. I remember the Boston bombing. That same…

I think that you have all the answers to the questions you posted here on why people in general have disproportionate reactions to death caused by violence and death caused by accidents.

It's all about human agency and intentions. Terrorist attacks are carried out by HUMANS with the clear INTENTION of inflicting harm on the populace. Accidents on the other hand lack these essential factors. When I walk by a chemical plant, it never crosses my mind that the plant would attack me or be capable of doing such a thing and therefore I am not worried to be around but on the other hand if I happen to be walking in a bad neighborhood late at night, I would be very wary of people around me because I know very well that some of them might inflict harm on me for any reason.

So, I think that the comparison you drew between these two categories is not that solid and that people have every right to be "terrified" of terrorism and take all the precautionary measures to stop/prevent it.