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The Unemployable Programmer

unemployable.pen.io

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Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#421

Post by jcadam »

logfromblammo wrote: post #378
doktrin wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fascinating. I work for a research lab and have a clearance, but we all make below private sector industry standard. I've never actually looked at defense contractors and thus had no idea what the pay scale was like.

The official government pay scales are orderly and consistent--consistently lower than private sector pay. They also contain a lot of hidden benefits. Once you cross into contracting, there is no pay scale. The pay rules are largely set by the contracts. And there are thousands of contracts, all different. The pay rates in these contracts are not necessarily connected in any way to current market rates, or indeed any…

I was once sent an accountant's spreadsheet by mistake at one of my former employers. They were paying me about $45/hr. They were billing the govt... significantly more than $90/hr for my time :)

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#422

Post by lsc »

milspec wrote: post #406
lsc wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no... this happens. I've got a buddy who is trying to find a job right now. My phone is ringing off the hook even after I've removed my number from the job boards, 'cause I have a pretty cushy gig right now, while he gets almost nothing. He's one of the smartest guys I know, and he's not crazy, no record or nothing, he's just kinda shy and comes off as... well, people tend to think he's shorter than he is. Which is f…

* (If anyone is looking for a smart C++ dude, preferably someone using QT, lemme know, I'll hook you up.) * Uh, maybe. Is he OK with low-level stuff too? We do use Qt, but we might ask him to write a disassembler or a kernel driver.

I think so. He would be super excited to work on the dissassembler. He doesn't have linux kernel experience, but he's on the list of people I'd hire to do a kernel driver, if I needed such a thing. (Really, he's only on the top of that list because everyone else I know who is proven in that field is fully employed and super expensive. But this guy is definitely smart enough to handle it.)

he was the original author of a serial class for qt[1]... of course, I know that is not anything like a device driver, but it's something.

I also body-shopped and sysadmined for him on a project that involved reverse-engineering a windows program.

but... you'd have to make it clear that you are okay that he doesn't have linux kernel experience, so long as he's willing to try it.

I think he'd also be cool with contract work, if you want to try him out.

my email is lsc@prgmr.com- I don't really feel like it would be cool to post his email on the open internet but I can forward something.

[1]qextserialport, which I am given to understand isn't the standard.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#423

Post by tbomb »

tracker1 wrote: post #405
aianus wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like you push anything important your first day. You spend two hours doing some simple bug fix that would usually take you 15 min and then spend the next six hours learning how the CI and deployment pipeline works, usually with someone holding your hand.

CI and deployment pipeline?!? What are you a spoiled millenials thinking... we build local, and copy the whole folder over RDP copy/paste onto the production server. You may laugh, but I've seen that far more often than an actual CI/CD process in place...

I've been at more than one place that does this (one just had a sys admin be the one to do it, after it was user tested) :(

Both were pretty entry level positions.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#424

Post by fmsf »

huherto wrote: post #89
fmsf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most cases we need to sort CVs somehow. If we sort by degree there is a high chance that someone in the top 10 fits the position. Interviewing dozens of candidates is very resource consuming. I can emphasise with his story, but is all game of numbers in the end.

FTFY empathize :)

https://www.google.pt/search?q=emphasise&oq=emphasise&aqs=ch... one is british english the other one is american english

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#425

Post by jschwartzi »

bengale wrote: post #210
jschwartzi wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been with teams who wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't finish a degree. It doesn't matter which kind, but they had to have proven they could do the degree.

That's a double edged sword I guess. I chose my school and degree based around staying close to home to help with my disabled brother. It turned out to be a poor decision, academically that is, as the course combined software engineering students with business I.T and we weren't covering anything I didn't already know. I got a summer placement writing code and realised I was learning much more during that time, so wh…

I happen to agree with you, and I think we passed on some good candidates because of it. Frankly if I hadn't gotten lucky I would still be temping in warehouses or worse, and I actually finished an(arguably worthless) degree. I think it would have been interesting to explore the candidate's sense of prudence in not finishing school, because I suspect that it was a prudent decision for him.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#426

Post by jellicle »

aianus wrote: post #330
jellicle wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you actually believe that, I pity you. The reality is that CEOs talk up a shortage while holding salaries absolutely steady and even while laying off thousands of programmers: http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-201508... The reality is also that a 40+, non-degreed programmer will have their resume thrown away by the first line HR people in 95%+ of cases. Not qualified for senior jobs due to lack…

Well, GoogBookSoft comes to Canada every year and wastes many millions sponsoring J1s, TNs, H1Bs, and relocation while paying the same salaries as they do to Americans. Why would they do that if there was no shortage of qualified American programmers in the bay?

To hold down wages?

If there were any shortage, why are IT wages absolutely flat?

If there were any shortage, why the famous pickiness exhibited by every company in their interview process?

http://cis.org/no-stem-shortage

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#427

Post by mratzloff »

teirce wrote: post #380
mratzloff wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming Java in school is not really what they mean by "Java experience". They mean personal projects, freelance projects, etc. > The worst thing about all of this is how harsh and degrading everyone is when you want to get into the industry. Questions are met with disgust derision, as if you are spoiling everyone's worldview. But I am just trying to describe my experience for survival reasons. I have no idea wha…

>I have no idea what this super vague paragraph means. I think this thread serves as a good example. Someone wrote a blog post saying "I'm having trouble finding a job." Look at the top comment, it's basically saying "You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, get out of here. Clearly you're doing something wrong, but I'm not going to try to actually address this problem or help you. Shoo now, you're ruining…

So, one, that's not what the top comment is saying. Two, there are dozens of other comments that try to help the OP, despite how vague his blog post is on specifics which could actually be used to help him. Based on those missing details and the fact that he has not replied to this thread, is it more likely he was looking for help or simply looking to vent to a large audience?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#428

Post by kagamine »

kragen wrote: post #260
kagamine wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP's age might (will) still work against him even with a diploma. There is still a perception in IT that anything to do with technology is for the young and hip (even though the Internet is 20 years old and digital gaming even older, but ho hum). It's ridiculous and annoying and there are too many young people willing to be taken advantage of in return for grok-only-knows-what they think they are getting.

The internet is 46 years old. I've personally been using it for almost 23 years.

Ok, the WWW then. Let's be honest, the average Joe didn't use the Internet before the WWW came along (at least not knowingly). But I should know better than to mix the two up.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#429

Post by analognoise »

greenyoda wrote: post #420
sargun wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you need to know how a HashTable works?

So you could predict its performance and know when it's not the best data structure to use?

Because it's an easy canned interview question that can replace the effort to determine how a candidate thinks and see if their skills actually align with the role?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#430

Post by matwood »

alkonaut wrote: post #358
bengale wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a big problem when I've been recruiting for developers. 10 years experience or 10 of the same year, normally it's the latter. Personally if I feel I'm no longer learning then I raise it with my manager. If after a few months nothing has changed then I start interviewing.

I thought it was nearly impossible to do software development and not learn continuously? Can't imagine what a dev workday looks like when you aren't learning. You rarely ever do the same thing twice, and even if you do you learn from past mistakes and become more efficient.

So a dev is hired out of school to build CRUD forms in (VB6|GWT|Something similar). Most likely they master the technology in a few months and now just take new/change requirements and never deal with much beyond the original tech. In a big company where changes can take forever, the dev spends a lot of time waiting on new requirements, going to meetings and acceptance. Before you know it, a lot of time has passed and the dev is still just building CRUD forms in whatever technology that happened to be put on when they were hired.
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