421–430 of 455 posts
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It wouldn't have happened with a visa or mastercard either. Bitcoin has literally nothing to do with this.
Apparently it does happen with bank accounts. So no, your point does not stand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... EDIT: In fact Bitcoin is much better protected against this. m-of-n signatures, brain wallets, hardware devices such as Tresor, etc.
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> the anti-taxers want others to pay the cost of living in the modern world This simply isn't true. Anti-taxers want to choose where their dollars go - each and every one.
There are many transactions in the world where people pay for things they didn't specifically want, e.g. buying a car and getting all the seats and safety features, or ordering a meal and paying the full price even if you ask for some ingredient to be omitted. In none of these cases--paying for a car where you'll take out the seats, paying for a meal where you don't get the mushrooms, paying taxes for government serv…
The difference is consent. People consent to paying for those meals or the car. But nobody ever consented to taxation. That's all part of the "social contract" we're born into.
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http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countrie... Of the most "livable" countries: - United Arab Emirates: don't want to live in the middle east, no thanks. I disagree with many of the laws there and have no close family or friends anywhere nearby. - Bahamas: gotta buy land there or pay an annual fee. This is probably the most reasonable of all options, but my work precludes me from living there. - Berm…
It is not theft. You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft". And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here. Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food,…
There is a verbal agreement (contract) outlining the specifications of the food. It says "pancakes" in the menu, it shows me the price, and I choose to order the pancakes for that stated price.
That is completely different from how taxes work in the United States. An appropriate analogy would be being born in a restaurant and being forced to pay money for what you have no idea and no say in. There is no menu. What's given to you is chosen by people you don't know and who you've never had a single conversation with. And btw, you can't just "get up and leave" the restaurant either.
When the analogy is this incompatible, you can compare anything to anything else and declare that bananas are just like soap.
If you can't see the difference, you are deluding yourself.
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There are many transactions in the world where people pay for things they didn't specifically want, e.g. buying a car and getting all the seats and safety features, or ordering a meal and paying the full price even if you ask for some ingredient to be omitted. In none of these cases--paying for a car where you'll take out the seats, paying for a meal where you don't get the mushrooms, paying taxes for government serv…
> There are many transactions in the world where people pay for things they didn't specifically want, e.g. buying a car and getting all the seats and safety features, or ordering a meal and paying the full price even if you ask for some ingredient to be omitted. The difference is consent. People consent to paying for those meals or the car. But nobody ever consented to taxation. That's all part of the "social contrac…
You're right that initial decision of consent was made for you by someone else--it was made for you by your parents, when you were a child and they had custody of you.
As an adult, you are free to revoke your consent by leaving the country and ceasing to enjoy the benefits its government provides.
(And as for "nobody consented to taxation," I consented, and continue to do so, because I like contributing to the country where I live and where I'm a citizen.)
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It is not theft. You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft". And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here. Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food,…
> Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. There is a verbal agreement (contract) outlining the specifications of the food. It says "pancakes" in the menu, it shows me the price, and I choose to order the pancakes for that stated price. That is completely different from how…
As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave.
You keep telling me how:
1) Other countries don't offer what you want, 2) It's expensive to move to another country, 3) Many countries won't grant you citizenship,
And so on.
None of those mean that you can't leave and go somewhere else. They just mean that wherever you go, you'll have to make a compromise.
Being forced to make a compromise elsewhere does not mean that taxation here is theft.
None of your claims support the false assertion that "taxation is theft".
I really don't understand what part of this you're missing. I really don't get what part of this plain language is in dispute.
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> Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. There is a verbal agreement (contract) outlining the specifications of the food. It says "pancakes" in the menu, it shows me the price, and I choose to order the pancakes for that stated price. That is completely different from how…
Again, your parents made the decision for your citizenship when you were a child and they had custody of you. As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave . You keep telling me how: 1) Other countries don't offer what you want, 2) It's expensive to move to another country, 3) Many countries won't grant you citizenship, And so on. None of those mean that you can't leave and go somewhere else. They just mean that…
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> Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. There is a verbal agreement (contract) outlining the specifications of the food. It says "pancakes" in the menu, it shows me the price, and I choose to order the pancakes for that stated price. That is completely different from how…
Again, your parents made the decision for your citizenship when you were a child and they had custody of you. As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave . You keep telling me how: 1) Other countries don't offer what you want, 2) It's expensive to move to another country, 3) Many countries won't grant you citizenship, And so on. None of those mean that you can't leave and go somewhere else. They just mean that…
To revoke consent I would have had to have been of a mind to have given it in the first place.
My parents payed taxes when I was a child. I did not. I then grew into a situation where I had to make money to stay off the streets and was forced to pay this government.
Maybe this isn't so black and white. I would be willing to agree that your point of view carries more weight the longer I stay here in a capacity where I am capable of moving to another country.
However, it starts out as theft and remains so until I have no excuse remaining for not leaving, and then it's only if there is a fair alternative available.
If there's some country out there that doesn't have an income tax but rapes its citizens 12 hours out of the day, that can't be counted as a fair alternative. It would still be extortion then ("pay us or get raped!").
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Again, your parents made the decision for your citizenship when you were a child and they had custody of you. As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave . You keep telling me how: 1) Other countries don't offer what you want, 2) It's expensive to move to another country, 3) Many countries won't grant you citizenship, And so on. None of those mean that you can't leave and go somewhere else. They just mean that…
> As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave. To revoke consent I would have had to have been of a mind to have given it in the first place. My parents payed taxes when I was a child. I did not. I then grew into a situation where I had to make money to stay off the streets and was forced to pay this government. Maybe this isn't so black and white. I would be willing to agree that your point of view carries mo…
The government provides you services, and you consent to paying for them by continuing to live here.
Before you were old enough to give consent, your parents made that decision for you. As an infant, you weren't capable of making such decisions, and as your guardians, your folks made it for you.
Now that you're (presumably) old enough to give consent, you are doing so by remaining here.
The government isn't forcing you to stay, even if you can't afford to leave right now. If your finances don't permit it, then I would suggest you save up until you can afford a bus ticket to Canada or Mexico, and then emigrate. Our government won't stop you at the border. (Canada or Mexico might, but that's them, not us.)
That you don't like the other countries out there (they aren't "fair alternatives") does not mean that, suddenly, taxation here is actually theft. It means you're picky, or you don't want to compromise, or whatever.
It doesn't change the fact that, as long as you're here, you're obligated to pay for a small share of the government's cost of doing business.
You may not like that obligation--it's still not theft. You may disagree with how tax dollars are spent--it's still not theft. You may dislike how you never signed an "I agree to pay taxes" contract--it's still not theft.
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> As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave. To revoke consent I would have had to have been of a mind to have given it in the first place. My parents payed taxes when I was a child. I did not. I then grew into a situation where I had to make money to stay off the streets and was forced to pay this government. Maybe this isn't so black and white. I would be willing to agree that your point of view carries mo…
No, taxation does not start out as theft. The government provides you services, and you consent to paying for them by continuing to live here. Before you were old enough to give consent, your parents made that decision for you. As an infant, you weren't capable of making such decisions, and as your guardians, your folks made it for you. Now that you're (presumably) old enough to give consent, you are doing so by rema…
> That you don't like the other countries out there (they aren't "fair alternatives") does not mean that, suddenly, taxation here is actually theft.
Yes, it does. The word for it is extortion.
1. No consent existed to begin with and money was taken forcibly. Theft. By definition. Go argue with a dictionary.
2. An alternative presents itself but the alternative is rape and so the choice is between theft or rape. This is called extortion. By definition. Go argue with a dictionary.