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Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

nytimes.com

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Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#421

Post by pluralmonad »

winter_blue wrote: post #158
m12k wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is on the dot. The entirety of their argument can be summed up as “I don’t want to give a shit about my neighbor”. And, “I don’t want to care for the hungry”. Or, “I don’t want to share medical costs with my neighbors”. Basically, “I don’t want to share anything”.

It seems normal for the target of forced resource extraction to not even view it as sharing, or see it in a positive light. Helping your neighbor when in need is one thing, being coerced into funding whatever some distant bureaucrat wants is another.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#422

Post by Razengan »

Zak wrote: post #189

For exactly the border search scenario, I wish smartphones could be imaged and restored as easily as PCs. Imagine booting the phone from a flash drive, making an encrypted image of the phone on said drive, and writing a fresh OS before reaching the border. There's no deception required to protect sensitive data or avoid the seizure of an expensive phone. Consent to unlocking the phone, refuse to unlock the drive. The…

How about every civilian banding together and refusing to comply?

in before those fucking "I hAvE nOtHiNg tO hIdE" twats

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#423

Post by expedition32 »

adamors wrote: post #263
leptons wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Those things are of the past now, for the US. It's a temporary situation, it isn't necessarily a permanent situation. Tell me how you think East Germany is doing these days. And no, it doesn't have to take 40 years to right the ship, so long as people get their heads out of their asses and vote. Things are likely to change by the end of this year, and in another 2 years we could have a very different government that…

Tens of millions have voted for this 3 times in the past 10 years, it succeeded twice. This is not going away, half the voting population of the US wants to live under authoritarian rule and will do anything to take the whole country with them.

Yep if Kent State happened today half of America would be cheering.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#424

Post by tshaddox »

Zak wrote: post #214
solid_fuel wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be fun to fantasize about these things some times, but there is no technical solution to tyranny. Laws are not like code, intent matters. Ultimately if the intent is that the government wants to see your private data, hiding it in any way will be charged - it doesn't matter if you jump through hoops to avoid this specific instance.

This is a half-truth. In a full banana republic, technical compliance with the law will not prevent consequences for failing to do what the authorities want. In a jurisdiction with perfect rule of law, it always will. The USA is somewhere in between. One of the laws that's enforced pretty well in the USA is the protection against unreasonable search. Most of the time, a search requires showing a judge evidence that t…

I think I mostly disagree with this. "Technical compliance" is not and should not be the thing that a legal system is designed to incentivize, and should not be the criterion for "perfect rule of law."

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#425

Post by s1artibartfast »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #283
deepfriedbits wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, this is a wild take. Things aren't great in the U.S. right now, but they're not even in the same universe as what the Stasi was doing. > I think it would be easier to understand the playing field and choose your actions accordingly, if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of course with 1000x more invasive and effective surveillance tech.

> what the Stasi was doing the stasi were spying on people and putting them in jail. what exactly is your claim about the difference? is it a difference in distinction or a difference in degree?

If we're trying to find a difference in distinction, that has never been the case in the US. The police I've always been able to surveil and put people in jail.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#426

Post by [deleted] »

deepfriedbits wrote: post #268
btbuildem wrote: post #227

The naivete of some of the comments here is astounding. It doesn't matter whether you're right, it doesn't matter whether it's the law, it's irrelevant that you have rights, etc. Those things are of the past now, for the US. I think it would be easier to understand the playing field and choose your actions accordingly, if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of cours…

With all due respect, this is a wild take. Things aren't great in the U.S. right now, but they're not even in the same universe as what the Stasi was doing. > I think it would be easier to understand the playing field and choose your actions accordingly, if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of course with 1000x more invasive and effective surveillance tech.

[deleted]

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#427

Post by kube-system »

panny wrote: post #247
Zak wrote: post #189

For exactly the border search scenario, I wish smartphones could be imaged and restored as easily as PCs. Imagine booting the phone from a flash drive, making an encrypted image of the phone on said drive, and writing a fresh OS before reaching the border. There's no deception required to protect sensitive data or avoid the seizure of an expensive phone. Consent to unlocking the phone, refuse to unlock the drive. The…

Think for a moment. What is the difference between giving them a password which wipes the phone and giving them a password which opens a blank phone? It's the same thing. They punched in a code, they are presented with a wiped phone. Can they prove the guy gave them a distress password and wasn't simply carrying a wiped phone to begin with? No, but they just need to imply that is the reason to charge him with the fel…

> What is the difference between giving them a password which wipes the phone and giving them a password which opens a blank phone?

> It's the same thing. They punched in a code, they are presented with a wiped phone.

No, the behavior between the two is in fact visibly and obviously different.

The regular passcode unlocks the phone. The duress passcode reboots the phone and resets it. I know this because this is literally what previous articles said happened when they entered the passcode in regards to this case.

See for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcgnBjHOK2g

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#428

Post by formerly_proven »

tavavex wrote: post #97

I'm not a legal expert, but all this seems to check out with US law. Americans need to remember that some of their constitutional rights don't really apply at ports of entry by design. This inconvenient truth for the land of the free has existed for a long time, this situation is just drawing attention to it. Their powers are far-reaching.

The US / common law jurisdictions typically only have very light self-incrimination protections. The 5th amendment in the US only protects against self-incriminating testimonial. That's it.

In most other jurisdictions (i.e. civil law) it's perfectly legal for the accused to destroy evidence (assuming you're not committing any other crimes in doing so, like breaking and entering, property crime etc.), seizure being ordered or not, while it remains illegal to destroy evidence at the behest of someone else. I.e. civil law usually doesn't criminalize self-protective conduct. That's true even in e.g. Japan.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#429

Post by dijit »

leonidasrup wrote: post #312
dijit wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its only with the benefit of hindsight (and being on the winning side- thus the propaganda was never dispelled) that we consider the stasi and so on the way we do. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.. might just be a duck. I don’t believe those living “normal lives” in East Germany or the Soviet era considered the police to be evil and invasive the way we do today.

Soviet era under Stalin was brutal. Soviet famine of 1930–1933 "It is estimated that 5.7 to 8.7 million people died from starvation across the Soviet Union. In addition, 50 to 70 million Soviet citizens starved during the famine but ultimately survived." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%93... Great Purge "Scholars estimate the death toll of the Great Purge at 700,000 to 1.2 million." https://…

You might not realise it, but you're proving my point to some extent.

We don't look at the deaths of our own people as "oppressive" despite the fact that the circumstances that caused them to die was our system.

I'm not some bleeding heart liberal or anti-capitalist... I just have an open mind to the idea that we're not necessarily the good guys just because we are us and I look at what is factually true - as in, how could we be described by a non-sympathetic entity.

Everyone is their own hero. Nobody believes sincerely that they're the baddie.

Chronic lower respiratory diseases account for 145k people a year in the US, and that is a consequence (largely) of car dependence...

Or, more directly, 20,000 people a year die due to malnutrition and starvation, tallied over years (as most do) that can rapidly rise to over 100k in a half-decade.

The UK has an excess mortality rate of 330,000 linked to healthcare cuts (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/over-330000...).

I get that the numbers were talking about are much higher, but it doesn't follow logically to me that ordinary citizens knew that their government was the "bad" one with its actions.

Hell, I know Russian families who genuinely believe Putin is doing the right thing right now. So, I don't blindly accept that my government is right just because I think "we're the goodies".

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#430

Post by khriss »

joenot443 wrote: post #282
btbuildem wrote: post #227

The naivete of some of the comments here is astounding. It doesn't matter whether you're right, it doesn't matter whether it's the law, it's irrelevant that you have rights, etc. Those things are of the past now, for the US. I think it would be easier to understand the playing field and choose your actions accordingly, if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of cours…

> if you accept the US has entered its East Germany / late 20th century Soviet era -- except of course with 1000x more invasive and effective surveillance tech. I'm pretty optimistic that after the next general America will be ready to give up on the extremity of late turn over a new leaf. I fully expect a new president to be ushered in, whether R or D, and for some level of normalcy to start creeping back. The Sovie…

> 10y later they're richer than ever

Overall as a country, undoubtedly. However, a vast majority of Americans are worse off than a decade ago.

A lot of wealth was created, relatively little went to the people though.

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