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And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

shkspr.mobi

421–430 of 447 posts

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#421
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, reasonable assumptions! But according to whom? The golden rule can be reasonable to you but not to me. But does that make me bad and you good? Not really. It just means we disagree on what it means to be a moral person. Anyone who doesn't agree with your "reasonable assumptions" has bad morals can be twisted to mean any moral values based on what you mean by reasonable. For example, the church can say it is reas…

The reasonable assumption I was referring to is what the words in the golden rule mean, not what actions are moral or not. The golden rule is almost as far as it gets from a “specific fixed rule”, despite the name, and it doesn’t prescribe what’s bad or good or moral, and nobody upthread said anything about what makes you bad or good. It’s nothing more than a rule of thumb, an aphorism, a (perhaps extremely obvious)…

The go-to example of a failure state in the golden rule that I am aware of is "thirsty person wants everyone else to jump their bones, thus the rule suggests that they should jump everyone else's bones".

The take-home being, as long as peoples preferences are different, the rule has some failure states based upon that.

And the wider example that this points to is that as long as everyone's values are different.. the rule loses a lot of it's luster. The more different another person's values are, the less you can rely on projecting your own values as a method to gainfully interact with them.

In place of that biblical aphorism (born from a monoculture no less), there is a lot of room available for us to build something more robust and sophisticated and the AI alignment problem offers a fine excuse to get cracking and try to formalize something already! ;)

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#423
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please forgive me. I happen to have a formal background in economics by way of training as an actuary, and I can't take seriously the implication that the standard model is a law. Supply and demand aren't invariant under all conditions.

> Supply and demand aren't invariant under all conditions. I'm curious. When does it not apply?

I have demand for people not dumping garbage in the oceans.

Other people have a demand to dump garbage in the ocean because it's cheaper than disposing of their trash properly.

How does the free market solve this? Will someone be buying the ocean any time soon?

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#424
post #21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ideal number of _prisons_ (as distinct from jails / pretrial confinement) is zero. This whole charade in the USA of dressing up slavery (without even a single day of interruption on January 31, 1865) as "correction" is absurd. It's obviously a way to continue an economy that relies on a supply of involuntary labor, and has nothing whatsoever to do with public safety. There are plenty of ways to implement…

Some crimes are bad enough that the perpetrators don’t deserve second chances. I’m ok with punishment for its own sake in some cases even if it would be more “cost effective” or “productive” for society to rehabilitate.

This seems like an orthogonal point, and one that I mostly agree with.

But the question is: just because some perpetrators don't deserve second chances, why does that mean that McDonalds and Raytheon get to be the beneficiary of their free labor?

And more importantly: with a huge economic incentive to enslave ("imprison"... eye roll) these people, can we ever actually have a system that properly selects people who actually need to be removed from society?

If prisons are actually a viable mechanism for public safety, let's amend the 13th amendment to prohibit all slavery, instead of allowing it to exist in prisons, and then we'll get a clearer picture.

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#425
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please forgive me. I happen to have a formal background in economics by way of training as an actuary, and I can't take seriously the implication that the standard model is a law. Supply and demand aren't invariant under all conditions.

> Supply and demand aren't invariant under all conditions. I'm curious. When does it not apply?

I'll flip this around and instead elucidate when it does apply if that's alright.

The supply and demand model only applies to analysis of microeconomic systems with perfect competition, namely of systems that lack monopoly and monopsony; that have perfect information; that lack an ability of a single economic actor to affect the price in the market; that lack externalities[0]; that lack transaction costs; that lack unknowable probability distributions of outcomes; that lack economic actors that change their behaviors based on what they expect other actors to do; and that lack non-market rules or structures that restrict prices, quantities, or entry. These assumptions are all-or-nothing, and there are a lot of them. It's also an equilibrium model, and we aren't guaranteed to have equilibrium.

For macroeconomic analysis (i.e., analysis of multiple sectors of an economy or multiple economies), it's problematic because of a theorem from the 1970's due to Sonnenschein, Mantel, and Debreu. I've stated it elsewhere, but it also has the implication that the behaviors of the actors in a microeconomic system do not carry over to the macroeconomic context. This tends to violate many of the assumptions above. (Though, if it isn't obvious how or why, please ask.) Furthermore, in the macro context, I don't think we'll ever have equilibrium; at least, I'm having a hard time thinking of an example when it exists.

Let's bring in a physics analogy. While we can look at mechanics through the lens of elementary algebra, those tools really only give us the ability to look at static force-balance problems for springs and pulleys in equilibrium. To model such a system more closely to how it behaves in the universe, with damping, inertia, and feedback (and whatever other time-dependent behaviors I may be forgetting), we are best served moving to differential equations.

Economics is no different; the supply and demand model is a lot like Hooke's law in its simplicity and its applicability. (In fact, in my modeling, I very heavily used numerical solutions of PDEs.)

--

0: When the retail price of kerosene tanked by 70% between 1860 and 1880, this resulted in millions more kerosene lamps and lamps broadly being lit for longer periods of time. This had externalities in the form of more soot and particulate matter (and probably also respiratory illness, but I couldn't seem to find anything with observations from the time period).

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#426
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In any society, you're going to have diverse views of "the right thing." Not only that, but you're also going to have people disguising their personal, selfish ambitions for power or money (or both, those two ambitions are usually found together) by pretending to other people that they want "the right thing". Most politicians operate this way. (I can't say "all" because there are some examples in history of politic…

> selfish ambitions for power or money Free markets are designed around a selfish ambition for making money. You can only make money by pleasing your customers. And hence free markets are the greatest mechanism for prosperity. There's nothing wrong with making money that way.

But the example I gave was of politicians seeking power for the sake of making money. Which is entirely different from making it via the free market. I'm very much pro-free-markets, but I don't think that (for example) members of Congress should be exempted from the "no insider trading" rules. There have been multiple cases of politicians (from both major American parties — and I'm sure it happens in other countries too, America is just the one I know about) buying stock in a company that they knew was about to get a lucrative government contract, before that news hit the public. So they benefited financially from their insider position, something that is forbidden to everybody else. That's a market distortion, and benefits nobody but the politicians. That's a good example of the kind of selfish desire for money that I meant, and does not fit the free-market philosophy.

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#427
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasonable assumption I was referring to is what the words in the golden rule mean, not what actions are moral or not. The golden rule is almost as far as it gets from a “specific fixed rule”, despite the name, and it doesn’t prescribe what’s bad or good or moral, and nobody upthread said anything about what makes you bad or good. It’s nothing more than a rule of thumb, an aphorism, a (perhaps extremely obvious)…

The go-to example of a failure state in the golden rule that I am aware of is "thirsty person wants everyone else to jump their bones, thus the rule suggests that they should jump everyone else's bones". The take-home being, as long as peoples preferences are different, the rule has some failure states based upon that. And the wider example that this points to is that as long as everyone's values are different.. the…

Again, that’s an overly literal and straw man interpretation of the golden rule that seems nearly intentionally obtuse. The rule is not suggesting you should do anything that you know other people wouldn’t like. Jumping people’s bones is a very bad example, because that’s not something anyone should do without communication and explicit permission, otherwise it’s rape and it’s illegal.

If you understand and accept the reciprocal intent of the golden rule, via the above mentioned reasonable assumptions, not to mention the hundreds of years of examples and explanations, then it doesn’t really have a “failure state”. And, again, this so-called rule is not law, isn’t specific, and doesn’t cover all situations or all behaviors. It seems very silly to be nit picking this aphorism to death like this. It’s very simply a good faith suggestion to be kind.

The notion of fairness and reciprocity is not a religious idea, it’s common sense.

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#428
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Finnland for example has nearly eradicated homelessness. It is not literally zero but 0.08% which is pretty good. If we had Finland's winters, I think we could eradicate homelessness by January.

Canada is a very visible counterexample to this glib statement.

They aren't making use of their winters, obviously.

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Finnland for example has nearly eradicated homelessness. It is not literally zero but 0.08% which is pretty good. If we had Finland's winters, I think we could eradicate homelessness by January.

If this is an attempt at humor, it is in very bad taste. And no, please educate yourself on what Finland did to eradicate homelessness. It has nothing to do climate but with the fact that Finland made it an explicit political goal to eradicate it i.e political will.

It is a success at humor, not only the attempt.

Finland did something, but "eradicating homelessness" wasn't what they did. It has nothing to do with political will in the case of the United States, and everything to do with a grab-bag of leftist policies that are entirely incompatible. Even if we were to ignore those who are plainly unfit to live in a home from the score, the remainder can't be housed while you import millions of immigrants to compete with them for housing. You can have one or the other of those two things, but they are mutually incompatible. And that's before you even get to the people so broken that they complain that they want to be homeless, to be vagabonds, living out of tents in alleys and panhandling. Such people exist. Sometimes they even manage to show up online and say as much, so you can't claim perfect ignorance here.

The addicts and the mentally ill that used to be institutionalized and whatever else can be said about them, they had a roof over their heads, do you want to bring back the big thorazine zombie warehouses? We could eradicate that homelessness. Is that your plan? I'm not even necessarily against it, but I do get a big kick out of the left that can't even bring themselves to say the words out loud.

Finland is a dying nation with a fertility rate below 1.5. As they continue to shrink, they might manage to have so many surplus homes that homelessness is eliminated... or they might import a bunch of immigrants that put pressure on housing. They might decide that they can't forego military spending with Russia next door, in which case the social spending they're doing won't be necessarily as affordable. Especially if Trump screws NATO with finality. "Please educate yourself"... god, you people. No wonder you lose elections.

Re: And then the men with guns tell you to do it anyway

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Civil society only exists when there is a collective general trust that most people are trying to do the right thing The phrase "the right thing" is load-bearing, to steal a Claudeism. The Muslim Brotherhood that ran the country before El-Sisi thought they were doing "the right thing." El-Sisi also thought he was doing "the right thing." Egyptians mostly thought El-Sisi was doing “the right thing” during this time…

> The thing I admire most about Anglo-American culture is that people will jump off a bridge if you give them a court order that complies with all required procedural formalities. The president of the United States routinely violates court orders and has little respect for the law or the Constitution. Also, nobody is going to willingly jump off a bridge because a judge told them to. You'll find that the death penalty…

I’m talking about the rule-followingness of your average american, which is the bedrock of civil society. Every society has rot at the top. Few societies can survive rot throughout the base of the pyramid.
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