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Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

reuters.com

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Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#421

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #420
hardbass wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were the one repeatedly saying all jews have some sort of magic connection to Israel. If I misread and you meant Israelis have a connection to that land, that still begs the question. Not everyone purportedly "Israeli" made the transition there and the question still remains valid, more concretely to people with dual citizenships.

Israeli culture is roughly jewish + middle-eastern culture. American jews have jewish + american culture. American jews would find they read the exact same prayers as israeli jews, can immediately feel comfortable in synagogue; relate to israeli jews in terms of values and religion and desire for a homeland on the mediterranean coast, but would be shocked by, e.g., the middle-eastern-style haggling in israeli markets…

Yes without doubt, obviously a person from NY would have a different culture than a person from Haifa or whatever. I think I misread you on that.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#422

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #417
hardbass wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Why 3000? Smells like a rationalization for a convenient number. There is no natural or scientific reason 3000 is special. That's an arbitrary self defined point they like to use. Yes, he is a second gen Polish immigrant. Its not his generation itself that is criminal by itself (though of course Netanhayhu is plenty criminal) but the original ingrate europeans who launched a series of vile terror attacks against…

3000 as that is the age of judea, the state central to jewish ethnogenesis. Netanyahu is an ashkenazi jew. His family traces back to ukraine and lithuania, where it remained jewish; unassimilated. Trace ancestors back further, and you will get to judea. The culture in judea provides a lens which very strongly helps to explain who netanyahu is today. If you trace back earlier than judea to e.g. canaanites, you will lo…

Yes and I am saying there is no naturalistic or scientific meaning to 3000. Its a number of selfish convenience. Israelis may try to say it is special, but it has no meaning to others.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#423

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #422
gershy wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3000 as that is the age of judea, the state central to jewish ethnogenesis. Netanyahu is an ashkenazi jew. His family traces back to ukraine and lithuania, where it remained jewish; unassimilated. Trace ancestors back further, and you will get to judea. The culture in judea provides a lens which very strongly helps to explain who netanyahu is today. If you trace back earlier than judea to e.g. canaanites, you will lo…

Yes and I am saying there is no naturalistic or scientific meaning to 3000. Its a number of selfish convenience. Israelis may try to say it is special, but it has no meaning to others.

The number is completely secondary - the significant thing is the location of the birthplace of the people/nation - that's what tells you who is indigenous to which land.

I assume you concede that there is a perfectly valid reason for jews to be interested in the land that is roughly modern day israel/palestine, i.e. it is the place where jews originated.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#424

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #423
hardbass wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and I am saying there is no naturalistic or scientific meaning to 3000. Its a number of selfish convenience. Israelis may try to say it is special, but it has no meaning to others.

The number is completely secondary - the significant thing is the location of the birthplace of the people/nation - that's what tells you who is indigenous to which land. I assume you concede that there is a perfectly valid reason for jews to be interested in the land that is roughly modern day israel/palestine, i.e. it is the place where jews originated.

No, why would it, they are "native" only if we pick this date, if we pick a different date they are native elsewhere. I can ask you likewise if you think its agreeable for a deported immigrant to begin terror attacks against the USA for that's how Israel began. Either you have legal rights to the land, or permission from those already living there or you don't. I don't care if its Chinese, Jewish, Somali, Indian. In my "dream scenario" Israel's land is relitigated. Those found to have valid purchases matching any in the last government (British or Ottoman) may stay. The rest are given a sum of money and a arrangement for immigration anywhere they wish. The remainder land is put into some kind of military trust and sold off via auctions to anyone in the world.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#425

Post by hardbass »

hardbass wrote: post #424
gershy wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number is completely secondary - the significant thing is the location of the birthplace of the people/nation - that's what tells you who is indigenous to which land. I assume you concede that there is a perfectly valid reason for jews to be interested in the land that is roughly modern day israel/palestine, i.e. it is the place where jews originated.

No, why would it, they are "native" only if we pick this date, if we pick a different date they are native elsewhere. I can ask you likewise if you think its agreeable for a deported immigrant to begin terror attacks against the USA for that's how Israel began. Either you have legal rights to the land, or permission from those already living there or you don't. I don't care if its Chinese, Jewish, Somali, Indian. In…

(This arrangement applies to only persons who are innocent victims ie born in Israel and saved up money to buy some property or inherited any. To these persons a sum deemed equivalent to the price of the property will be provided. To illegal settlers, nothing should be provided. Suitable criminal proceedings and punishment should occur for them.)

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#426

Post by cog-flex »

gershy wrote: post #405
hardbass wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? You tell me why committing acts of terrorism against its benefactor country with an ingrate sense as if its your own land not British land is valid or any previous precedent makes it valid? The reason why I don't go thousands of years back eg to Saxons and Vikings is that modern Britain and modern Denmark have long made peace, whereas Israel the state was formed itself as an act of ingratitude and terroristi…

I love discussing this stuff, but I'm not interested in guessing what your non-specific language is referring to; I'll likely silently ignore that stuff. I generally support israel because: - I don't think it corresponds to your hypothetical (which I obviously disagree with) - It was internationally recognized by the UN, and I find the collective jewish effort put towards nation-building to be legitimizing - I suppor…

Saying Israel is a “functioning democracy with human rights” is not a truthful statement.

First, Israel still has no single written constitution and instead operates through Basic Laws, something its own parliament acknowledges. So, not a democracy.

Second, Israel was established through armed Zionist paramilitary groups conducting terror campaigns. Look up the Irgun and Lehi, both of which carried out bombings and other attacks that were described as terrorism by contemporary governments and organizations.

Third, the claim that it “has human rights” is impossible to square with reality. Israel maintains a decades-long military occupation of the West Bank, where Palestinians live under military law while Israeli settlers living in the same territory are governed by Israeli civilian law. Human rights organizations document torture and abuse in Israeli detention facilities holding Palestinians. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch published extensive reports documenting systematic violations of Palestinians’ rights. both organizations completely reject the characterization of Israel as a state that upholds human rights. What evidence are you prepared to put forward that Israel “has human rights” in the face of the evidence that its human rights are reserved for one class of people?

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#427

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #425
hardbass wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, why would it, they are "native" only if we pick this date, if we pick a different date they are native elsewhere. I can ask you likewise if you think its agreeable for a deported immigrant to begin terror attacks against the USA for that's how Israel began. Either you have legal rights to the land, or permission from those already living there or you don't. I don't care if its Chinese, Jewish, Somali, Indian. In…

(This arrangement applies to only persons who are innocent victims ie born in Israel and saved up money to buy some property or inherited any. To these persons a sum deemed equivalent to the price of the property will be provided. To illegal settlers, nothing should be provided. Suitable criminal proceedings and punishment should occur for them.)

Jewish ethnogenesis occurred in ancient israel plus judea. Yes or no?

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#428

Post by suburban_strike »

KingMob wrote: post #218
Joyfield wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait. The Jews really DOES run everything?

They said Israel, not Jews. Don't be antisemitic.

All Jews are dual citizens of Israel. Whether or not they've invoked the right to return, access is made available to them by default.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#429

Post by hardbass »

gershy wrote: post #427
hardbass wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(This arrangement applies to only persons who are innocent victims ie born in Israel and saved up money to buy some property or inherited any. To these persons a sum deemed equivalent to the price of the property will be provided. To illegal settlers, nothing should be provided. Suitable criminal proceedings and punishment should occur for them.)

Jewish ethnogenesis occurred in ancient israel plus judea. Yes or no?

If jews want an ethnostate, then its valid for others also to want an ethnostate and boot out the foreign jews, yes or no? The answer is tied for both.

I could just as much find the people with genetics tracing to that region who are Muslims and Christians today. And if I manage to muster a number larger than those fraction of Israeli jews with genetic roots there, what would you say?

If I am 1% Native American and 99% English, what am I? Native or English?

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#430

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #429
gershy wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jewish ethnogenesis occurred in ancient israel plus judea. Yes or no?

If jews want an ethnostate, then its valid for others also to want an ethnostate and boot out the foreign jews, yes or no? The answer is tied for both. I could just as much find the people with genetics tracing to that region who are Muslims and Christians today. And if I manage to muster a number larger than those fraction of Israeli jews with genetic roots there, what would you say? If I am 1% Native American and 9…

There are two points here: 1. Do jews have an arbitrary or valid interest in israel/palestine? 2. Do other peoples have a valid, nonzero amount of interest in the same land?

On #1 we seem to agree - of course the jewish interest in their indigenous land (the land of jewish ethnogenesis) is valid.

And of course the answer to #2 is a clear "yes". If muslim passion for and capability to seize israel increased sufficiently, it could of course become a muslim state. It seems we entirely agree here, and you return to this point most often - but it's also a completely moot point as it applies evenly to all parties - isn't it?

Jews have a unique claim to israel - they're the only people existing today which tightly trace their ethnogenesis to that region. Can you name another? (E.g. not palestinians - their ethnogenesis is strongly linked to islam / arabia.)

(If we agree here, which I think we do, I'd love to discuss your "relitigation of israel" idea because I think it's interesting and bananas)

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