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How to convert between wealth and income tax

paulgraham.com

421–430 of 727 posts

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is. ($1,000 * 1%) + ($5 * 20%) = $11 tax due on $5 income. They are separate taxes but he's expressing them both in terms of an effective income tax rate. In this case, since you owe more taxes than income you've earned, you'll need to sell off some of your wealth to pay up. If you have no income at all, but do have wealth, then you get a division by zero error so I do get that it's maybe absurd to frame it th…

But when you liquidate assets you... pay tax! Capital gains tax. So you liquidate, pay capital gains, and use the proceeds to pay a wealth tax?

In the contrived example, the 5% return was "risk free" so assume it was something like CDs, no capital gains.

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Using a wealth tax to nationalize corporations sounds like exactly what we should be doing. You want Trump and company in charge of it all? Or are we finally back to "the next time Democrats win it will be forever!" wishful thinking? I mean, even if you want to nationalize everything, it's as if you dreamt up the worst possible way to go about doing that so that they've cratered first and started hemorrhaging all th…

So let's not even think about how to build a better world because the administration we have right now is garbage? We need a wealth tax, ONLY public financing of elections (no PAC money, no "I'm a billionaire so I can spend as much as I want on myself"), and many other reforms. Nationalizing critical industries and sectors is also something we should be pursuing.

From the standpoint of 1926, we built the better world and you're living in it. It's hard to imagine how much better off we all are, but it's not a law of nature, and with enough damage to markets and production, we can get back there again!

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#423
This seems to be willfully eliding that proposed wealth taxes tend to either be taxes on wealth above a certain amount, or (such as California’s) a one-time tax on people with wealth over a certain amount. If I were a mere millionaire -- technically, I am, with a net worth of just over $1.1M, but this would be true if that were $5M or $10M or even $50M -- then under any proposal I’ve seen, my wealth tax would be $0. (Note that if someone were to have $50M, then under Graham’s risk-free rate of return of 5%, they would literally have to do nothing to pay themselves an “income” of $2.5M annually.)

If I were an actual billionaire -- say, my net worth was $2B -- then my one-time tax under California’s proposal would be $100M, leaving me with a net worth of $1.9B. Under that 5% risk-free rate of return, I would recover that amount of money within one year even if my income were $0, which seems exceedingly unlikely.

One can argue about the specifics of various proposals -- the Tax Foundation, for example, thinks California’s proposal has “aggressive design choices and possible drafting errors” that could lead to somewhat bonkers results, although I haven’t seen any critiques of their analysis yet -- but a wealth tax cannot be converted to income tax in a reasonable manner any more than a VAT could be converted to property tax. They’re both taxes, but they’re simply not the same kind of tax. And while I don’t mean to cap on Paul here, there’s a distinct “woe, pity the poor billionaires who will surely be driven to bankruptcy” subtext I find to be risible nonsense.

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#424
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When more assets are sold than are bought How does this make sense? If Johnny sells 5 cars, that means 5 cars were bought. How can Johnny sell more cars than are being bought? Do you mean that Johnny has more cars to sell than are being bought?

It's like a hot potato where people want to sell assets over buying them. Obviously at any given moment there are as many buyers as sellers, but this is exactly why trying to force people to sell at rock bottom prices brings widespread asset destruction.

Ya, but if there are way more sellers than buyers that means that prices are inflated. If prices were lower there would be more buyers, but sellers want to keep their asset prices inflated so they don't lower prices. Assets that are priced properly don't have the problem of having too many sellers. I think calling it asset destruction is slightly disingenuous. Just because the price is lower doesn't mean the asset is destroyed. Even if we are talking about a stock selling for 50% less, it is still a share in company ownership.

Who is forcing anyone to sell at rock bottom?

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#425

This seems to be willfully eliding that proposed wealth taxes tend to either be taxes on wealth above a certain amount, or (such as California’s) a one-time tax on people with wealth over a certain amount. If I were a mere millionaire -- technically, I am, with a net worth of just over $1.1M, but this would be true if that were $5M or $10M or even $50M -- then under any proposal I’ve seen, my wealth tax would be $0.…

The traditional name for a surprise "one time wealth tax" is a capital levy. It's got a pretty terrible reputation all around because it's the closest thing to an official declaration that your country (or state as the case may be) is now a complete fiscal and financial basket case that can't manage to fund itself by sensible means.

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be an extremely regressive tax regime, effectively a flat tax rate. Worse than a flat tax rate, actually, since consumption rates do not scale linearly with income or wealth.

I think he meant that you'd have the brackets apply to types of consumption instead of income level, so no tax on food, low tax on restaurants, medium tax on high-end electronics, insane tax on planes and yachts. I mean it sounds like it would be easier to maintain/enforce such tiering system than constantly fight with people trying to not technically be wealthy. Downside of course is that some people's luxuries are…

What "high end electronics" would be taxed at a medium rate? Do billionaires not just use iPhones? Most high end private planes are the same models as regional jets (e.g. Embraer ERJ line), so a tax on them would still be mostly impacting normal folks' plane tickets.

The core problem remains the same: consumption does not scale with wealth. If we limit taxes go a handful of goods and services, then demand is just going to shift to something else. Consumption taxes give billionaires the option to drastically reduce their tax burden by consuming less. The lifestyle of someone with a $20 million net worth is not that much worse than someone with a $2 billion net worth.

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is less amusing how many of our brethren think the Landed Gentry got there by merit and deserve to live in their castles untroubled by the rabble.

Some 20% of US billionaires grew up poor, or at least without well-off parents. 60+% were upper middle class or below. So, I think we can note that they've created enough value for the rest of us and deserve to keep the fraction of that value that they were able to negotiate.

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step-up basis is important for anyone who inherits property from their parents. That can be substantial in places like California where real estate has gone up a lot. And for inherited rental property, there is another huge loophole: you can can depreciate the full market value of an asset that you got for free. That’s a substantial tax benefit for many years.

The step up basis makes sense in a world where you still have to pay substantial inheritance taxes. But with minimal to no inheritance taxes, the step up is a giveaway.

It’s also a practical policy. It’s far easier to know the stepped-up basis on the date of X’s death than it is to know the basis that X had in something once X is dead.

Re: How to convert between wealth and income tax

#430

Some thoughts I have been having recently 1. Wealthy more or less means able to live off the investments (passive income). Usually it means live off the interest of the interest (generally assessed as 8 million bucks nest egg) 2. It’s an obvious logical step but it is literally impossible for everyone to be independently wealthy. As in everyone cannot have a passive income. 3. So this debate just chnages when we ask…

I still haven't heard a solid explanation of how taxing loans as "income" is going to work. Being able to borrow against assets is a pretty essential part of the present-day economy. Almost everybody does it, from the very poorest taking out a car-title loan (however ill-advised) to middle-class people with home equity loans to medium sized businesses and farms who often have loans against their entire assets in orde…

> I still haven't heard a solid explanation of how taxing loans as "income" is going to work.

The idea is that taking a secured loan out using an asset as collateral would be a taxable event for that asset.

That is to say, if you buy a house for $400,000 and it appreciates to be worth $850,000 then take a home equity loan out against the house, you would owe capital gains on the $450,000 appreciation.

With the current $250,000 capital gains exclusion for primary residence, this would result in ~$30,000 of capital gains tax.

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