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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#421

Post by dgellow »

buellerbueller wrote: post #106
dgellow wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand regulating dark/abusive patterns, but at the end of the day I should be allowed to doomscroll at night if I want to

>I can understand regulating dark/abusive patterns, but at the end of the day I should be allowed to doomscroll at night if I [am an addict]

You don’t need to be an addict to doomscroll, drink alcohol, consume weed, etc. In free countries we generally consider it ok let you do things that aren’t necessarily good for you at large doses.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#422

Post by tim-projects »

pembrook wrote: post #257
tim-projects wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the issues with social media is it's difficult to quantify the harm caused, and that holds true for any form of mental or emotional harm. One form that definitely can be quantified are the social media moderators who have to sit all day reviewing explicit and illegal content. I also think you need to review what you consider the barrier to entry for harm. If you imply that there needs to be chemical or physica…

Yes raising the barriers to what we consider harm is a good thing. Also, nobody is talking about harassment, that's already illegal. In modern developed economies we don't have a problem with the barriers to harm being too low. We've got the opposite problem, where we've become deathly afraid of trivial imagined harm, resulting in us basically never doing anything and regulating new things out of existence (just look…

> trivial imagined harm

No harm is trivial. And imagined harm is not harm - it's lying (and should be dealt with appropriately).

As a society setting laws on what level of harm should be justified without action - is obviously up for debate. But denying genuine suffering never should be. And what's genuine is up to the individual. You can't go around telling people they aren't suffering in a just society.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#423

Post by singleshot_ »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

Interactive computer services under CDA 230 are not the same as common carriers and your lack of sophistication on this point implies your suggestion this is “simple to solve” is not coming from a position of wisdom.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#424

Post by freejazz »

throwaway902984 wrote: post #381
freejazz wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every platform that lets people submit content would have to stop doing that, because it’s an impossible liability to manage. This is a huge assumption that is offered constantly, and always, without any evidence at all.

"letters to the editor" curated by employees would become a part of their business model and regular contributions would go away? Why would that assumption be incorrect? I wouldn't run a website where a casual user having a moment could result in my imprisonment. I would only allow non-lbtq content that didn't mention race or immigration, as the chilling effect there is real. A DA would for sure come after me if my s…

Was hoping for a more reasoned opinion from OP

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#425

Post by conception »

singleshot_ wrote: post #423
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

Interactive computer services under CDA 230 are not the same as common carriers and your lack of sophistication on this point implies your suggestion this is “simple to solve” is not coming from a position of wisdom.

Lol. It’s the EU so CDA 230 doesn’t apply either. But I appreciate your position of wisdom.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#426

Post by fc417fc802 »

tolerance wrote: post #412
fc417fc802 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? It seems like you're pedantically focusing on a single word without regard for the actual meaning of the broader statement. No one is proposing to regulate things done in the traditional manner of cable tv, nor other uniform and impartial approaches.

@conception (root): "If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present" @Aurornis: "Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too." @Aurornis (cont'd): "When every site with “an algorithm” is liable for content posted, nobody is going to allow you to post something. It’s back to only rea…

Legislation needs to be clear and unambiguous, sure. Nonetheless no one had chronological sort or raw vote count or whatever else in mind when they used the term "algorithm" here so pretending they did is obtuse and pedantic. Misinterpreting the position of the other party does not typically make for enlightening or insightful conversation.

Cable TV is an example of something that no one is objecting to. The EU is targeting specific practices (particularly addictive UX patterns). Some people (myself included) would also like to see algorithms that provide personalized (on the individual or small cohort level) output banned. HN is clearly not that.

I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about where exactly the line is between a general class and a small cohort. Certainly applying more than a few general classes simultaneously can quickly land you back in near-individual territory.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#427

Post by singleshot_ »

SoftTalker wrote: post #312
Aurornis wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Goes away, or is liable for the content promoted to the frontpage under the OP's take? Same thing. There is no Hacker News if Y Combinator becomes liable for user submitted content. It’s an obvious backdoor play to make sites go away. If a site becomes liable for content posted, you cannot allow users to post content without having the site review and take responsibility for every comment and every post. The people…

I think you could finesse it by saying that on HN, the users submit the content and the users also determine (by voting) what is popular. Ycombinator doesn't promote or bury any particular post with their own algorithms; they don't exercise any editorial review or control. (I don't think that's exactly true today, but it could be). But to the larger point, I would actuall agree that sites should "review and take resp…

> They are the ones amplifying and distributing this content, why should they have zero responsibility for it?

If LinkedIn started allowing hardcore pornography, many of their advertisers would leave.

With that in mind, are you certain LinkedIn takes “no responsibility” for the content they distribute? It would seem they have a multimillion-dollar stake in the outcome of their efforts to shape their commercial product.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#428

Post by [deleted] »

freejazz wrote: post #419
NewsaHackO wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got it. If the page doesn't fulfill the original purpose that people wanted to go to it, it ceases being interesting. The fact that the page merely exists is meaningless, much like a blank website.

Well, you pointed to the NYTimes which, again, has not changed, so what is your point? Maybe the NYTimes is not a good example? I don't know, you brought it up. Are you saying the NYTimes is not an interesting website? It seems to also have the news and discussion of the news, so what exactly am I missing?

[deleted]

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#429

Post by LPisGood »

mrits wrote: post #187
LPisGood wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is any form of government regulation of corporate actions fascism in your view? Where is the line drawn?

This is a clear line and we fought Europe already over this in the last century. There is absolutely no world where we need a group of people telling us how long we are allowed to be on TikTok. It is inexcusable to think this way in a free democracy.

We regulate gambling companies, tobacco companies, and alcohol companies just fine.

I don’t think it’s fascism to add another societal plight to that list

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#430

Post by singleshot_ »

conception wrote: post #425
singleshot_ wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interactive computer services under CDA 230 are not the same as common carriers and your lack of sophistication on this point implies your suggestion this is “simple to solve” is not coming from a position of wisdom.

Lol. It’s the EU so CDA 230 doesn’t apply either. But I appreciate your position of wisdom.

If you take a look at the top twenty five platforms by users I’m sure you will figure out why this is not relevant.

Worth noting: in the EU, public carriers are not referred to as common carriers.

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