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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#421

Post by LorenPechtel »

michaelt wrote: post #364
observationist wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe not have automated surveillance robonannies playing gotcha games and pocketing money, often impacting those who can least afford it, over technicalities and arbitrary rules made up to benefit the people doing the collecting. The idea that AI enforcement won't be just as corrupt and capricious as any other form of government run extortion is bonkers. You're talking systems with less oversight than openclaw be…

> The idea that AI enforcement won't be just as corrupt and capricious as any other form of government run extortion is bonkers. [...] Private, unaccountable companies with effectively no oversight In the specific case this thread is about - that of red light cameras - presumably the camera produces a photograph showing a red light, a vehicle going through it, and the vehicle's license plate. Plus a video, showing th…

Unfortunately, all too often it doesn't.

Some cameras only produce a photograph. Some produce a video with the light status showing on it--but there have been cases that's wrong, the camera recording what it was programmed to do which didn't match the real lights.

You need actual video of the scene that can be examined and which is of sufficiently good quality that the identity of the car can be confirmed. Very often it does not exist.

Likewise, speed cameras should record enough that one can do a time/distance calculation to confirm the speed--because the system can be miscalibrated or can be fooled by large, flat surfaces.

Or look what has happened with breathalyzers. Last I heard if a judge grants the discovery request for the source code the case gets dropped. And the whole thing is based on a flawed principle in the first place: the ratio of breath alcohol to blood alcohol varies substantially between people--setting it for average isn't accurate. As a screening test for doing a blood draw, fine, but it should not be allowed anywhere near the courtroom. (Some states get this right, some do not.)

And, yes, ambulances. I forgot about another time I know I ran a red light. Something with lights/sirens was coming up behind, no lane was empty, I was in the only lane with one car. Lots of space at the intersection, I pulled forward and turned hard right, clearing my lane without actually entering the cross path.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#422

Post by ProllyInfamous »

These are already unconstitutional in Tennessee — yet the private company still sends out violation notices (with a payment address).

Nothing happens if you don't pay them; state congressmen have burned their own citations publicly.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#423

Post by LorenPechtel »

hamdingers wrote: post #318
giantg2 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The objective evidence indicates that accidents tend to go up after red light cameras go up, generally because the operators lower the yellow light time to increase fees.

The objective evidence shows an increase in rear-end crashes but a reduction in injury and fatal crashes, offering a net overall benefit. Council et al., 2005 -- https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05048/...

There's a regression to the mean issue at work.

Sometimes an intersection simply has bad luck, draws more accidents than anything about it would cause. Put a camera there, you'll see an "improvement".

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#424

Post by hrimfaxi »

mulmen wrote: post #407
Larrikin wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

I’m not sure if it was COVID or the social movements around the same time like defund the police. Here in Seattle when defunding the police was suggested the police department threatened to close the precinct in a large residential area. Basically they attempted to extort the voters. I think the police have realized that crime is good for them because the more of it voters see the more they think police are needed.

Which leads to the extreme—maximal crime leads to maximum police budgets!

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#425

Post by jaredklewis »

sowbug wrote: post #409
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I get your point, but I doubt the fine could have been ethically higher. Domino's drivers killed dozens of people in speed-related accidents before they ended their 30-minute guarantee. I don't think our society is ready for the combination of automatic enforcement and truly punitive penalties. We readily demonize the accused; just having your mugshot taken can end your employability. Yet many of us break laws daily…

I don't think you did get my point (my fault perhaps), as my only point is that if you take away from the Haifa study that fines will automatically increase the prevalence the targeted behavior in all situations, that's an insane conclusion to draw. There are lots of variables at play: the size of the fine, how consistently and strictly it is enforced, the ability of the finer to collect the fine, the social context, and so on. The Haifa study examines none of these. It does does highlight an interesting phenomenon, but without further studies that control for these variables, I don't think we can just blindly assume that the outcome in the Haifa day cares will apply to all situations where a fine is levied.

I see all the time on the Internet (and even IRL once) people make claims like, "oh, carbon taxes will just increase CO2 output, you know like in that Israeli daycare study." Drives me nuts.

Are fines the best possible solution to this particularly traffic problem? I have no idea. I'm not an expert in this area. But I am highly confident that whatever relation it has to the Haifa daycare study is so incredibly tenuous that it is not worth mentioning.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#426

Post by LorenPechtel »

vkou wrote: post #391
zoky wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that requiring you to testify in order to absolve yourself of guilt violates your Fifth Amendment right not to testify in a trial against you. It is up to the government to prove you did something, not up to you to prove you didn’t.

You can not testify all you want, but you should still be on the hook for your vehicle getting tickets, just like you are on the hook for your vehicle accruing toll fees. If your car was magically stolen and returned, and you have no idea that it happened, or who could have done this... Well, that's certainly an interesting legal argument that you could make to a judge. I doubt he'll believe you.

In the old days it certainly happened. Joyriding. Take someone's vehicle for a spin, put it back. Illegal but nowhere near as serious a penalty. Car security systems have gotten a lot better since then.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#427

Post by LorenPechtel »

brewdad wrote: post #121
hypeatei wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it wasn't you driving, you know who That's not necessarily true. What if it's a shared car in your family and you weren't home to see who took it? This comment is the tech equivalent to "falsehoods programmers believe about "... real life does not fit into such neat boxes.

The photo will show the driver. Presumably, you recognize your partner and/or your children.

Twins.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#428

Post by smsm42 »

jan_g wrote: post #191
smsm42 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment Says who? If the car is mine, I am free to do with it whatever I like (of course, excepting criminal acts). I do not owe anybody an account of what I - or the care - did at any particular moment. If the car was used in the commission of a crime, it's up to the prosecution to prove I had something to do with it. If they think I know who did it - prove it and…

But couldn't you then have the same argument for speeding tickets (or parking tickets)? Like, "I don't know who drove my car too fast or parked my car on the curb, so it's not my problem. The state should prove who did it.".

For the speeding ticket, if the police officer stops you, you'd get a ticket and would sign it, thus ensuring you were there. Or, if you refuse, the police officer would testify in court (if you would ask for a court hearing) that they saw you behind the wheel (and, likely now, you'd also be on bodycam). That would likely be enough evidence - which is why you probably don't want to go to court, because the judge would be annoyed at you for wasting everybody's time, and you'd probably get more severe punishment.

That said, I did at times get smaller fine and less severe consequences from a speeding ticket by just pretending I am going to go to court (I didn't really want to, I wanted smaller fine :) - because policemen do not like to waste time in court either - so they would agree, that if I do not try to deny I did it, and do not force thus them to go to court and testify, they would agree to less severe violation (while still costing me $$, just not as much as it could). That's totally a thing, at least in the US. The risk, of course, if you are an ass about it and piss off the police officer, they'd say to heck with it, I'll go to court, and you'd have to go to court too, and as per above, you'd get punished more severely. So, always be polite, and it will be to your benefit.

As for automated speeding tickets, I'm not a huge fan of it. Too many cases of this system being wrong or abusive.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#429

Post by Spooky23 »

infecto wrote: post #371
Larrikin wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

Maybe it exists but I wish there was more heavy hitting articles/research on this. I feel like an absolute grumpy old man but it feels drastically different compared to my younger years driving and I am only 40. These days I rarely see police on the side of the road ticketing and when I do it’s usually on a highway. Never do I see people getting pulled over in city streets. My thesis has been an uptick on BS calls. S…

Absolutely. They shut down for COVID and never came back.

A big part of traffic stops was to find weed and trade up for an arrest. With legalization, they’ve shifted to camera work, which has gotten even bigger with Flock.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#430

Post by hrimfaxi »

elliottkember wrote: post #365
kamarg wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't tell who was driving, you shouldn't be sending anyone a ticket.

You get a parking ticket regardless of who parked

Is there no distinction between standing and moving violations?
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