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The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

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Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#421
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you I give LLMs all the information they need. Including hints to what kind of solution to use. They still fail.

So how do you rectify your anecdotal experience against those made by public figures in the industry who we can all agree are at least pretty good engineers? I think that's important because if we want to stay ~anonymous, neither you nor I can verify the reputation of one another (and therefore, one another's relative master of the "Craft"). Here are some well known names who are now saying they regularly use LLM's f…

You are overstating those sources. That alone makes me doubt that you're engaging in this discussion in good faith.

I read them all, and in none of them do any of the three say that they "regularly use LLMs for development".

Carmack is speculating about how the technology will develop. And Carmack has a vested interest in AI, so I would not put any value on this as an "engineers opinion".

Torvalds has vibe coded one visualizer for a hobby project. That's within what I might use to test out LLM output: simple, inconsequential, contained. There's no indication in that article that Linus is using LLMs for any serious development work.

Knuth is reporting about somebody else using LLMs for mathematical proofs. The domain of mathematical proofs is much more suitable for LLM work, because the LLM can be guided by checking the correctness of proofs.

And Knuth himself only used the partial proof sent in by someone else as inspiration for a handcrafted proof.

I don't mind arguing this case with you, but please don't fabricate facts. That's dishonest

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#422
There are reasons why I measure code quote input unquote via testing and static code analysis:

1. re-establishes mind mapping of the code base 2. separates out noise from signal. 3. makes it a breeze to refactor to reduce code complexity.

Notice anything yet?

If I replace the AI code input with my own curated techniques from known and measured code sources in long-term I save more time than those who rely upon AI vibe coding.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#423
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am kind of lost here on this whole scarf through a ring thing as well. This is just a function of the thickness of the scarf? My wife went through a scarf phase about a decade ago, and I am pretty sure a Pucci scarf could easily fit through a typical sized ring meant to go on a finger? Its entirely possible that old manufacturing methods produced things that are different, but I would be entirely surprised if they…

A full size wool scarf cannot go thorough a ring. You are probably thinking of a silk scarf. I have a wool scarf next to me from Kashmir and it went down about 25 cm. The full scarf is a bit over a meter. Looked up Pucci - looks like a designer that makes silk scarves. Silk is a totally different material. The Luddites were wool and cotton weavers. Making wool thin enough for a meter long scarf to go thorough a ring…

Appreciate the clarification. I guess its a case of I don't know what I don't know, but the choice of metric around quality was just an odd one. And yeah I assumed silk because I can't imagine a wool scarf going through a ring.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is overstating it. Computers are amazing machines, and modern operating systems are also amazing. But even they cannot completely mask the downstream effects of poor quality code. You say you don't care, but I bet you do when you're dealing with a problem caused by poor code quality or bad choices made by the developer.

Yep willing to bet that the majority of people saying "users don't care how well the code is written" will crash out when some software they're using is slow and buggy, even more extremely if it glitches and deletes their work. Just like how most people don't care how well a bridge is designed... until it collapses.

yes, they will hit the TV or through the remote, or bang the mouse, or the box. I mean - if you tell me this is 'care', no... this is outrage, and it would probably not even be focused to one particular component.

and for what is worth - the reason of failure may not be because of particular nut, but the combination of them all.

the whole idea that most software is done in good faith is just plainly wrong, and most of the software we rely on a daily basis - all the enterprise bullshit - is very very very often not done in good faith, but rather just made, seamed, helped into some weird equilibrium of temporary performance.

perhaps hardware is done right more than software ever is.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#425

> Video games stand out as one market where consumers have pushed back effectively No, it's simply untrue. Players only object against AI art assets. And only when they're painfully obvious. No one cares about how the code is written. If you actually read the words used in Steam AI survey you'll know Steam has completely caved in for AI-gen code as well. It's specifically worded like this: > content such as artwork,…

3/4 pf all code written now is auto-complete. Code was never the hard part.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Startfield is boring because of the bad writing and they made a space exploration game where there are loading screens between the planet and space and you don’t actually explore space. They fundamentally misunderstood what they were promising, it’s the same as making a pirate game where you never steer the ship or drop anchor. You can prove people are not bored with the concept as new gamers still start playing fall…

I think my point stands. Procedural generation is a tool that usually works best when it is supplementary. What makes New Vegas an amazing game is all the hand built narratives and intricate storylines. So yeah, I agree, Starfield is boring because of the story. But if the procedural vastness was interesting enough to not be boring, then we wouldn't be talking about this to begin with.

Im inclined to say that if Bathesta used LLMs for story based on known best seller books - it would be better than the garbage created by so called “modern script writers”.

The same could be said about Hollywood movies and series.

When agenda is more important than fun, books, movies, games are not labour of love but neglet.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#427
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is entirely assumptions about a future that has not happened. Ive worked in "AI" for 20 years, through 2 winters, and run an alignment shop and AIRT... The problem is people. People will use the problem as a scapegoat.

Dinosaurs lived 100 million years, before they didn't. And walls between France and Germany were effective, until they weren't. Hell, even the 'people' is the problem doesn't work well for things like Moloch problems. Which people? The problem can no longer be pointed at any individual but a super-organizational response. Once you have an issue that is abstracted from it's base components, then any agent capable of p…

Im familiar. Our group employs game theory in our research... In practice, if you are at the point of blame- yes you have failed.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#428
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one wants _buggy slop code_ for their game, but ultimately no one cares whether is has been hand crafted or vibe-coded. As proof, ask yourself which of the following two options you would prefer: 1. buggy code that was hand-written 2. optimized code that was vibe-coded I'll bet most people will choose 2.

I've never seen something as complex as a video game vibe coded that was actually well optimized. Especially when the person doing the prompting is not a software developer. So I personally do care and I am someone, so the answer is not no one.

Vibe coding as we know it has only been a thing for the last 12-18 months. So by definition the vibe-coded games you have seen are the ones being rushed.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a hard core rogue-like player (easily over a thousand hours at least in all the games I’ve played) but even so I can admit that hey have nothing compared to a well crafted world like you’d find in From Software titles or Expedition 33, or classic Zelda games for that matter. Making a great world is an incredibly hard task though and few studios have the capabilities to do so.

Rogue-like games use the most simple randomisation to generate the next room, and I burnt hundreds of hours in Mines of Moria before I forced myself to quit. Now with an LLM I could have AD&D-like campaigns, photorealistic renders of my character and the NPCs. I could give it the text of an AD&D campaign as a DM and have it generate walking and talking NOCs. The art of those great fantasy artists is definitely being…

Artists want to create. They do not want to tweak prompts and click "Generate" repeatedly until the output matches their vision. I would find this maddening.

But this wouldn't make sense anyway. Game companies won't foot the bill for real-time renders of your character, let alone a world of generated NPCs. If/when costs are low enough, and players accept a recurring subscription to play games, then this could happen, sure. No way in hell will artists be available in real-time to keep the generated imagery consistent.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#430
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also, for example, the studies finding that when companies adopt AI employees' jobs get worse. More multitasking, more overtime, more burnout, more skills you're expected to learn (on your own time if necessary), more interpersonal conflict among colleagues. And this is not being offset by anything tangible like an increase in pay. Can you share those studies? I'm pretty skeptical of this effect. I find that A…

https://hbr.org/2026/02/ai-doesnt-reduce-work-it-intensifies...

Paywalled, and HBR articles are famously not a good source
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