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Don't rent the cloud, own instead

blog.comma.ai

421–430 of 516 posts

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#421
IT dinosaur here, who has run and engineered the entire spectrum over the course of my career.

Everything is a trade-off. Every tool has its purpose. There is no "right way" to build your infrastructure, only a right way for you.

In my subjective experience, the trade-offs are generally along these lines:

* Platform as a Service (Vercel, AWS Lambda, Azure Functions, basically anything where you give it your code and it "just works"): great for startups, orgs with minimal talent, and those with deep pockets for inevitable overruns. Maximum convenience means maximum cost. Excellent for weird customer one-offs you can bill for (and slap a 50% margin on top). Trade-off is that everything is abstracted away, making troubleshooting underlying infrastructure issues nigh impossible; also that people forget these things exist until the customer has long since stopped paying for them or a nasty bill arrives.

* Infrastructure as a Service (AWS, GCP, Azure, Vultr, etc; commonly called the "Public Cloud"): great for orgs with modest technical talent but limited budgets or infrastructure that's highly variable (scales up and down frequently). Also excellent for everything customer-facing, like load balancers, frontends, websites, you name it. If you can invoice someone else for it, putting it in here makes a lot of sense. Trade-off is that this isn't yours, it'll never be yours, you'll be renting it forever from someone else who charges you a pretty penny and can cut you off or raise prices anytime they like.

* Managed Service/Hosting Providers (e.g., ye olde Rackspace): you don't own the hardware, but you're also not paying the premium for infrastructure orchestrators. As close to bare metal as you can get without paying for actual servers. Excellent for short-term "testing" of PoCs before committing CapEx, or for modest infrastructure needs that aren't likely to change substantially enough to warrant a shift either on-prem or off to the cloud. You'll need more talent though, and you're ultimately still renting the illusion of sovereignty from someone else in perpetuity.

* Bare Metal, be it colocation or on-premises: you own it, you decide what to do with it, and nobody can stop you. The flip side is you have to bootstrap everything yourself, which can be a PITA depending on what you actually want - or what your stakeholders demand you offer. Running VMs? Easy-peasy. Bare metal K8s clusters? I mean, it can be done, but I'd personally rather chew glass than go without a managed control plane somewhere. CapEx is insane right now (thanks, AI!), but TCO is still measured in two to three years before you're saving more than you'd have spent on comparable infrastructure elsewhere, even with savings plans. Talent needs are highly variable - a generalist or two can get you 80% to basic AWS functionality with something like Nutanix or VCF (even with fancy stuff like DBaaS), but anything cutting edge is going to need more headcount than a comparable IaaS build. God help you if you opt for a Microsoft stack, as any on-prem savings are likely to evaporate at your next True-Up.

In my experience, companies have bought into the public cloud/IaaS because they thought it'd save them money versus the talent needed for on-prem; to be fair, back when every enterprise absolutely needed a network team and a DB team and a systems team and a datacenter team, this was technically correct. Nowadays, most organizational needs can be handled with a modest team of generalists or a highly competent generalist and one or two specialists for specific needs (e.g., a K8s engineer and a network engineer); modern software and operating systems make managing even huge orgs a comparable breeze, especially if you're running containers or appliances instead of bespoke VMs.

As more orgs like Comma or Basecamp look critically at their infrastructure needs versus their spend, or they seriously reflect on the limited sovereignty they have by outsourcing everything to US Tech companies, I expect workloads and infrastructure to become substantially more diversified than the current AWS/GCP/Azure trifecta.

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#422
For ML it makes sense, because you’re using so much compute that renting it is just burning money.

For most businesses, it’s a false economy. Hardware is cheap, but having proper redundancy and multiple sites isn’t. Having a 24/7 team available to respond to issues isn’t.

What happens if their data centre loses power? What if it burns down?

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#423

This is an industry we're[0] in. Owning is at one end of the spectrum, with cloud at the other, and a broadly couple of options in-between: 1 - Cloud – This is minimising cap-ex, hiring, and risk, while largely maximising operational costs (its expensive) and cost variability (usage based). 2 - Managed Private Cloud - What we do. Still minimal-to-no cap-ex, hiring, risk, and medium-sized operational cost (around 50%…

Getting rid of bureaucratic internal IT department is a game changer for productivity. That alone is worth 10x infra costs, especially for big companies where work can grind to a halt dealing with obstructionists through service now. Good leaders understand this.

Sadly true. Or, the so-called internal IT Dept. can be a shambolic mess of PHB's, Brunchlords, Catberts, metric maximizers, and micromanagers, presiding over the hollowed-out and burned out remains of the actual workforce that you'd need to reliably do the job.

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#424
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A $120M spend on AWS is equivalent to around a $12M spend on Hetzner Dedicated (likely even less, the factor is 10-20x in my experience), so that would be 3% of their revenue from a single customer.

> A $120M spend on AWS is equivalent to around a $12M spend on Hetzner Dedicated (likely even less, the factor is 10-20x in my experience), so that would be 3% of their revenue from a single customer. I'm not convinced. I assume someone at Netflix has thought about this, because if that were true and as simple as you say, Netflix would simply just buy Hetzner. I think there lots of reasons you could have this experie…

We run our own infrastructure, sometimes with our own fincing (4), sometimes external (3). The cost is in tens of millions per year.

When I used to compare to aws, only egress at list price costs as much as my whole infra hosting. All of it.

I would be very interested to understand why netflix does not go 3/4 route. I would speculate that they get more return from putting money in optimising costs for creating original content, rather than cloud bill.

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#425

The reason companies don’t go with on premises even if cloud is way more expensive is because of the risk involved in on premises. You can see it quite clearly here that there’s so many steps to take. Now a good company would concentrate risk on their differentiating factor or the specific part they have competitive advantage in. It’s never about “is the expected cost in on premises less than cloud”, it’s about the r…

Yes, the idea is that you focus on the things that differentiate you from the competition. If you’re a factory that makes nails, a better data centre won’t make you any more money. It won’t help you sell more nails. So you should leave the data centres to the experts, and focus on work which improves your actual product.

If you don’t, you’ll be stuck trying to figure out data centres. Hiring tons of infrastructure experts, trying to manage power consumption. And for what? You won’t sell any more nails.

If you’re a company like Google, having better data centres does relate to your products, so it makes sense to focus on them and build your own.

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#426
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest problems with the self-hosted situations I’ve seen is when the senior engineers who set it up leave and the next generation has to figure out how to run it all. In theory with perfect documentation they’d have a good head start to learn it, but there is always a lot of unwritten knowledge involved in managing an inherited setup. With AWS the knowledge is at least transferable and you can find peopl…

>With AWS the knowledge is at least transferable unfortunately it lot of things in AWS that also could be messed up so it might be really hard to research what is going on. For example, you could have hundreds of Lambdas running without any idea where original sources and how they connected to each-other, or complex VPCs network routing where some rules and security groups shared randomly between services so if you d…

Not much different from how it worked in companies I used to work for. Except the situation was even worse as we had no api or UI to probe for information.

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#427

At scale (like comma.ai), it's probably cheaper. But until then it's a long term cost optimization with really high upfront capital expenditure and risk. Which means it doesn't make much sense for the majority of startup companies until they become late stage and their hosting cost actually becomes a big cost burden. There are in between solutions. Renting bare metal instead of renting virtual machines can be quite n…

>At scale (like comma.ai), it's probably cheaper. But until then it's a long term cost optimization with really high upfront capital expenditure and risk.

The issue with comma.ai is that the company is HEAVILY burdened with Geohotz ideals, despite him no longer even being on the board. I used to be very much into his streams and he rants about it plenty. A large reason of why they run their own datacenter is that they ideologically refuse to give money to AWS or Google (but I guess Microsoft passes their non woke test).

Which is quite hilarious to me because they live in a very "woke" state and complain about power costs in the blog post. They could easily move to Wyoming or Montana and with low humidity and colder air in the winter run their servers more optimally.

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#428

The lowest grade I got in my business degree was in the "IT management" course. That's because the ONLY acceptable answer to any business IT problem is to move everything to the cloud. Renting is ALWAYS better than owning because you transfer cost and risk to a 3rd party. That's pretty much the dogma of the 2010s. It doesn't matter that my org runs a line-of-business datacentre that is a fraction of the cost of publi…

Right, but is that a like for like comparison?

AWS has redundant data centres across the world and within each region. A file in S3 will never be lost, even if you store it for a thousand years.

What happens if your city has a tornado and your data centre gets hit? Is your company now dead?

And how much do you spend on all these sysadmins? 200k each? If you’re saving 20k/month by paying 100k/month in salaries, you aren’t saving anything.

Re: Don't rent the cloud, own instead

#429
This is hackernews, do the math for the love of god.

There are good business and technical reasons to choose a public cloud.

There are good business and technical reasons to choose a private cloud.

There are good business and technical reasons to do something in-between or hybrid.

The endless "public cloud is a ripoff" or "private clouds are impossible" is just a circular discussion past each other. Saying to only use one or another is textbook cargo-culting.

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